[RD] Hamas/Israeli War News One: Hostages and Invasion

[Sarin]

If you live in the Global North there's a good chance that your country either diplomatically, economically or militarily supports Israel so you don't have much of a choice unless you want to campaign against it.


I assure you that any slogan developed by Palestinians or their allies will be misconstrued as an antisemitic attack. Engaging in these sorts of rhetoric changes are a waste of time.

Diplomatically, my country supports Israel, but through the UN/EU programs, it sends humanitarian aid to Palestine, which usually ends up in hands of Hamas. So I'm actually in favour of cutting both.

 

[Crezth]

Sounds like it means whatever its users need it to mean at any one moment.
Personally I'd find a better slogan which differentiates me from those users who do want Jews expelled from the Mideast, rather than this intellectual preening about other people who don't "get" it.

That’s pretty much all slogans though. They don’t care how you feel about it. It’s for pulling them together. And there were Jews in mandatory Palestine before and outside of any context of Zionism. Zionism involved specific production methods and a specific process of settlement creation to build up the kibbutzim. It also simultaneously involved militia gangs who would be sicced on Palestinian Christians and Muslims as part of an ongoing struggle to acquire land to build those kibbutzim. It was a nakedly violent and exploitative struggle built on aggressive enclosure. This all happened 10-20 years before 1948, too. So the war of independence absolutely did not happen in a vacuum but was the culmination of these militia gangs and settlement builders having the political weight and backing to essentially build their own army and state. They then secured the existence of that state through the same naked force and the decisive concentrated and fully realized policy of expulsion. You talk to Israeli historians or you even read the testimony of Israeli political leaders and you swiftly realize that this was all going according to plan precisely. The Nakba had to happen so that they could secure living space and breathing room for their core population and the size they planned to grow it to.

So the fights, the conflicts, they were not pogroms against Jews such as happened all across Europe in that time. It was battles of increasing intensity with Zionist militias and private armies who were conquering Palestine brick by brick. Basically any country that gets invaded like that is going to come up with a slogan to cast the invaders out right? And now in the current reality its clear you can’t get rid of everyone. But the problem is the state that’s outside of anyones control but a small band of insane radical interests who do have both power and wherewithal to make a second Nakba happen.

All in all this is where I’d say hand wringing about the Palestine slogan is just cowardice and refusing to allow oneself to have the mental fortitude to understand why political slogans exist and how they relate to political reality. Political reality is that Palestinian people and dignity are incompatible with the state as it exists right now. Especially with this government. There’s absolutely no way to contravene that. Now whether the Palestinians are all to be placed with a blood curse because of their old wartime slogan, or whether we are going to decide to break the cycle and use the awesome power of international law, frankly it’s in the western noble powers and glorious defenders of democracy’s corner, and not so much the Palestinians right now.

 

[Kyriakos]

External agency can't impose truce between two sides not wanting a truce by any other means but superior force, be it military or other means. But that won't be peace. The conflict, even if paused this way, will simmer until it can flare up again. Plenty of examples all around the world, from Kosovo to the post-colonial Africa.

The only way this really ends in any other way but genocide is if there's enough will and political power on both sides to break the cycle or revenge, hate and violence, admit the wrongdoing of both sides, bring those responsible to justice from both sides, even if it means going against their own, and try to work out something that'll allow at least their children to live in peace.
But right now, I see virtually no such will on either side. Instead, any support given to either side will go toward fueling the genocide. And I don't want any part of that.

Israel isn't Russia, sanctions would make it stop very quickly. The US certainly can force Israel, without using its military.
I also don't see how "genocide" is going on from both sides. Hamas simply doesn't have the army for that.

 

[Crezth]

Far-right minister says nuking Gaza an option, PM suspends him from cabinet meetings​

Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said Sunday that one of Israel’s options in the war against Hamas was to drop a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip, in comments that were quickly disavowed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who also suspended the minister from cabinet meetings.

Asked in an interview with Radio Kol Berama whether an atomic bomb should be dropped on the enclave, Eliyahu said, “This is one of the possibilities.”

Eliyahu, a member of National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir’s far-right Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power) party, does not have any connection to the three-member war cabinet directing the war against the Hamas terror group, nor is he part of the broader security cabinet.

When it was pointed out to the minister that there are some 240 hostages currently held in the Gaza Strip, Eliyahu doubled down.

“I pray and hope for their return, but there is a price to be paid in war,” he said. “Why are the lives of the abductees, whose release I really want, more important than the lives of the soldiers and the people who will be murdered later?”

Eliyahu also voiced objection to allowing any humanitarian aid into Gaza, saying, “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” and charging that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”

Far-right minister says nuking Gaza an option, PM suspends him from cabinet meetings | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Sarin]

Israel isn't Russia, sanctions would make it stop very quickly. The US certainly can force Israel, without using its military.
I also don't see how "genocide" is going on from both sides. Hamas simply doesn't have the army for that.

They have the will, and if the support shifts away from Israel while Iran and Russia step up their support, they'll have the means.

 

[Lexicus]

“I pray and hope for their return, but there is a price to be paid in war,” he said. “Why are the lives of the abductees, whose release I really want, more important than the lives of the soldiers and the people who will be murdered later?”

The nuke thing is he's insane (and thankfully, evidently more insane than Bibi is as yet) but this strikes me as saying the quiet part out loud...

 

[Sarin]

Far-right minister says nuking Gaza an option, PM suspends him from cabinet meetings​

Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said Sunday that one of Israel’s options in the war against Hamas was to drop a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip, in comments that were quickly disavowed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who also suspended the minister from cabinet meetings.

Asked in an interview with Radio Kol Berama whether an atomic bomb should be dropped on the enclave, Eliyahu said, “This is one of the possibilities.”

Eliyahu, a member of National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir’s far-right Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power) party, does not have any connection to the three-member war cabinet directing the war against the Hamas terror group, nor is he part of the broader security cabinet.

When it was pointed out to the minister that there are some 240 hostages currently held in the Gaza Strip, Eliyahu doubled down.

“I pray and hope for their return, but there is a price to be paid in war,” he said. “Why are the lives of the abductees, whose release I really want, more important than the lives of the soldiers and the people who will be murdered later?”

Eliyahu also voiced objection to allowing any humanitarian aid into Gaza, saying, “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” and charging that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”

Far-right minister says nuking Gaza an option, PM suspends him from cabinet meetings | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

I didn't know Medvedev had Israeli brother...

 

[Senethro]

They have the will, and if the support shifts away from Israel while Iran and Russia step up their support, they'll have the means.

Nah. A supported Hamas with mobile, concealable AA and weapons for hunting vehicles is still only operating in truck distance from a flattened Gaza strip that Israel is cautious about entering due to supply and vehicle loss issues.

Any actual genociding going on would be Settler militias rounding up all their cousins and forcing them to kill their neighbors of 10 years to prove they're on the right side.

 

[Crezth]

The nuke thing is he's insane (and thankfully, evidently more insane than Bibi is as yet) but this strikes me as saying the quiet part out loud...

It's Otzma Yehudit. They're just like this.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Apparently the Prime Minister of Israel's eldest son is currently living the Florida Man lifestyle.
Like Bolsonaro.

Benjamin Netanyahu's controversial son did not return home for war. Some Israelis are wondering why

As 360,000 Israeli reservists flock to join the war effort against Hamas, some returning volunteers and their families have asked why Yair Netanyahu is not among them.

www.abc.net.au

During the 2015 election campaign, Netanyahu was trailing behind his opponent and facing defeat, until he released a 28-second video on his Facebook account.

"The right-wing government is in danger. Arab voters are coming out in droves to the polls. Left-wing organisations are busing them out," Netanyahu said.

Critics said the claim in the video was race baiting.

The scare tactics were reportedly Yair's idea — and they worked.

When Netanyahu won two days after the video was posted online, the New York Times claimed that he credited his commanding victory to his son.

"He called his advisers into a meeting and told them that one person was in charge of this victory. Then he turned to Yair," a former senior aide told the New York Times.

With his father back in office, Yair became his defender-in-chief online, often slamming Netanyahu's critics and making incendiary comments about Muslims.

...

But Yair's fiery social media presence eventually caught up with him.

When the libel suits started rolling in, he quietly left Israel for Florida.

...

On the streets of Jerusalem, some reservists and their loved ones wondered why Yair had not yet returned.

"I think if our sons are doing their duty, perhaps the prime minister’s son should as well," said Bilha, who didn't want to give her surname to protect the identity of her son, who is in southern Israel.

"[Yair] doesn't have to be in combat, but I think it would be good for him to be in Israel."

Maybe if he doesn't go back, he doesn't have to pay the $246,000 in libel suit judgements.

 

[sophie]

Sounds like it means whatever its users need it to mean at any one moment.
Personally I'd find a better slogan which differentiates me from those users who do want Jews expelled from the Mideast, rather than this intellectual preening about other people who don't "get" it.

Yes, this is also why I refrain from drinking milk, making the “ok” sign, or just using German words generally.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Strangely enough, you seem to never see this kind of double standard for Israeli talking points such as "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East" whenever they engage in undemocratic behavior. Is also Israel the only democracy in the Middle East sometimes?

 

[Zelig]

Even putting that aside - the amount of Palestinian civilians that have been killed by Israelis (either directly or indirectly) is several orders of magnitude higher than the amount of Israelis killed by Palestinians, both in this conflict and over the entirety of the existence of Israel.

Several orders of magnitude more Palestinian civilians than the number of Israeli civilians (you seem to have missed this word for the Israeli side) killed by Hamas in this conflict alone would comprise half the population of Gaza. The difference for the current conflict is around a single order of magnitude.

 

[Kyriakos]

We are now at 10000 palestinians dead, and roughly half of them being children. I'd not even want to think of an estimate of how many of those 10000 are members of hamas (likely a tiny minority).
Impressive that a country can kill 10.000 in a couple of weeks and there are no sanctions.

 

[red_elk]

Impressive that a country can kill 10.000 in a couple of weeks and there are no sanctions.

Sanctions have nothing to do with killing - some countries can literally kill several millions without any trouble. It's always just a pretext.

 

[soundjata]

There will always be justifications for violence, aplenty!

But I'm gonna side with the weakest. This is my nature.

Spoiler I don't want no peace :

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: We have multiple music video threads. Please don't add more here. Thanks.

 

[amadeus]

So ignoring the whole occupying power radicalising folks into Hamas' arms for a second, the phrase itself is used across demographics, and pinning down a single meaning is difficult.

Can it be used in an antisemitic way? Yes. Would you therefore agree that all people saying it should be associated with that usage? Do you (or GenMarshall) believe in that kind of shared guilt?

I think the term used is “dog-whistle.” Right or wrong, the implication of eliminating the state of Israel comes along with baggage about the wholesale slaughter of the Jews there. Combined with Hamas being a Muslim fundamentalist group, I‘m very inclined to be suspicious of any promises they make regarding the rights of non-Muslims, or even Muslims who do not share the same views as Hamas.

The entire point of the organization is to fight for a Palestine that stretches contiguously from the Mediterranean Sea to the River Jordan

Which to me seems like it would invite the kind of reaction from Israel that we are seeing now, positing them as an existential threat.

"From the river to the sea" is not exclusively used by Hamas or any non-Fatah group, in fact the phrase originates in the 60s (nearly 20 years before the founding of Hamas).

I did not mean to imply it originated with Hamas—the original PLO had something of similar goals until the 1990’s.

 

[Senethro]

Sanctions have nothing to do with killing - some countries can literally kill several millions without any trouble. It's always just a pretext.

If its just a pretext then what should be done?

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Israel isn't Russia, sanctions would make it stop very quickly. The US certainly can force Israel, without using its military.

Approval from US is the primary reason for Israel to act with impunity. Without the US, Israel wouldn't have been so bold. And needless to say the Jewish lobbyist groups have very very strong influence over Western government officials, particularly in the US

I also don't see how "genocide" is going on from both sides. Hamas simply doesn't have the army for that.

They do need to stop firing rockets at the very least