[RD] Hamas/Israeli War News One: Hostages and Invasion

[Gorbles]

And nothing, we were asked to limit ourselves to news, and refrain from opinionating,

so I should probably delete my last comment there...

Oh right, my bad. I thought there was a discussion going on (genuinely).

 

[Snowygerry]

Certainly - these ME conflicts polarize like no other,

Not like last time: Why Gaza is a new 'rip' in Belgian society

Belgium is used to seeing spikes in hatred of Jews and Muslims during Middle East conflicts — but the Gaza war is tearing apart society in deeper ways than before.

euobserver.com

But this time around, with the intensity of killing off the charts, and what Muslims see as a Western 'carte blanche' for Israel, "there are new rips in the [Belgian and European] social fabric", Kobo said.
"This will have bigger ramifications for global security than the Iraqi invasion had and Syria," he said, referring to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the Syrian civil war, which broke out in 2011.
The new Gaza war is acute because Palestinian group Hamas, which rules Gaza, killed 1,400 Israelis in a raid on 7 October — the greatest loss of civilian life in Israel's history.
Israel has killed over 9,000 Palestinians in Gaza, including thousands of children, in the Palestinians' greatest tragedy since the 1940s.

This is more or less what we see here at CFC too imho.

The Arab-Israeli conflict tends to split Belgium into three psychological groups — Jews, Muslims, and the rest, who "don't get" the "intensity of emotion" in the minority communities, Kobo said.

Here the minority seems to be the majority though.

"If I'm Tehran, if I'm Beijing, if I'm Moscow this [the Gaza war] is the one thing I'd be trying to exploit with everything that's currently going on," Kobo said.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I am not in favour of making the slogan:

from the river to the sea

illegal in the UK.

The thing is I think that free speech is important; and I think that the use of english words
and phrases should be considered according to their ordinary meaning in the english
language, rather than on the basis of implied/inferred meanings or 'dogwhistles' etc.

And I don't have a problem with the islamics simply using the word "jihad" either.

So I am not in favour of attempts to change the law in the UK to criminalise their use.

 

[FriendlyFire]

SUCH DEMOCRACY

MUCH FREEDOM
Wait till you find out what government HAMAS is, The gazans must be SO OPPRESSED

here were frequent kidnappings and acts of violence against civilians

HOW DARE KIDNAPPING AND VIOLENCE BE ILLEGAL !
Stop Oppressing me
Moderator Action: Warned for spam. The_J

 

[Sarin]

I actually sort of agree with the idea of wanting nothing to do with this situation in the way of monetary support, but the bolded part above does require one to understand a key point. See, since Hamas controls Gaza and is running a semi-functional state within an open-air prison you are correct that any aid to Gaza ends up in Hamas' hands. The problem with your take here is the implication that all of that aid then ends up being used to attack Israel, which is not only wrong, its ignorant of reality on the ground. If you do not care enough to look into it to understand, how say aid for Gaza ends in the health ministry of Gaza that is ran by Hamas and then that reality is turned into an excuse to not give aid to Gaza then your bias is showing. One could say the same thing for Likud and any coalition member of Likud, but the attack Hamas made is now 1/10 of the reprisal Likud has made and well Likud is a massively op terrorist organization compared to Hamas.

Sadly, the reality on the ground is that well-being of Palestinians is against Hamas' goals, who wants them martyred for their cause. And thus we have cases like vital infrastructure being dug up and turned into weapons, medical aid being redistributed from civilians to terrorists attacking Israel and so on.

Tell me, what's worse for Palestinians, not having enough water because lack of aid, or not having enough water because Hamas dug up the pipes and used them for rockets, then getting blown up in Israeli retaliation strike?

 

[Crezth]

MUCH FREEDOM
Wait till you find out what government HAMAS is, The gazans must be SO OPPRESSED

Victors of civil war? I mean they’re mainly an autonomous political power that Israel generally and Netanyahu specifically fostered and built up. Bibi twisted arms to get Qatar to host them. Now of course everyone gives Qatar crap about that. But they do have real engagements with Israel. Likud just treats them like a client state or colony emblazoned with the symbol of the enemy people who need to be expunged, and takes every opportunity to make additional steps in that direction. Get up on google, do a little research for a change, and look up Israeli news before October 7. Look up second Nakba and plans for Gaza and West Bank. Look up Itamar Ben-Gvir. “Get educated” as they say

 

[Crezth]

Sadly, the reality on the ground is that well-being of Palestinians is against Hamas' goals, who wants them martyred for their cause. And thus we have cases like vital infrastructure being dug up and turned into weapons, medical aid being redistributed from civilians to terrorists attacking Israel and so on.

Tell me, what's worse for Palestinians, not having enough water because lack of aid, or not having enough water because Hamas dug up the pipes and used them for rockets, then getting blown up in Israeli retaliation strike?

This is meaningless without numbers or facts to support your case. You should learn a thing or two about irrigation policy and waterworks in Palestine and Israel. For starters the water generally comes from Israel. Previous figures in the thread quoted at least 40%. Now that’s on an ongoing basis and it is a desert so you need every drop. Yes there are wells. However that’s not going to saturate a sewage network which is how general irrigation is scaled. Even coming from Israel, everyone agrees the population logically deserves and requires the water. Except people who are now making excuses for the entire strip to die.

 

[Sarin]

This is meaningless without numbers or facts to support your case. You should learn a thing or two about irrigation policy and waterworks in Palestine and Israel. For starters the water generally comes from Israel. Previous figures in the thread quoted at least 40%. Now that’s on an ongoing basis and it is a desert so you need every drop. Yes there are wells. However that’s not going to saturate a sewage network which is how general irrigation is scaled. Even coming from Israel, everyone agrees the population logically deserves and requires the water. Except people who are now making excuses for the entire strip to die.

As if we didn't have enough evidence from Hamas itself, using the aid for the attacks. There's some scattered around the previous thread.

But here are some facts for you. The strip is dying, because nobody in power actually cares about Palestinian Arabs. Israeli government wants them gone. Hamas wants them martyred. Surrounding countries don't want to take refugees and are just fine with Hamas' plans for them. US uses Israel as geopolitical tool in ME, Iran and Russia support Hamas as geopolitical tool against US. And any support that goes to either Israel or Gaza ends up reinforcing the status quo, which is ongoing genocide.

 

[EnglishEdward]

@ Sarin

A very good summary.

 

[Gorbles]

As if we didn't have enough evidence from Hamas itself, using the aid for the attacks. There's some scattered around the previous thread.

But here are some facts for you. The strip is dying, because nobody in power actually cares about Palestinian Arabs. Israeli government wants them gone. Hamas wants them martyred. Surrounding countries don't want to take refugees and are just fine with Hamas' plans for them. US uses Israel as geopolitical tool in ME, Iran and Russia support Hamas as geopolitical tool against US. And any support that goes to either Israel or Gaza ends up reinforcing the status quo, which is ongoing genocide.

So if these are the facts, why did you bother asking Estebonrober "what's worse" r.e. water access, pitting Hamas allegedly digging up pipes, and Israel bombing them in retaliatory strikes?

This is exactly why Crezth responded how they did. What you asked for was a value judgement, and for that, more data was required. The data you've provided, the facts as you call them, are pretty reasonable in my eyes, but at the same time provide little-to-no value r.e. the original question about water access.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Victors of civil war? I mean they’re mainly an autonomous political power that Israel generally and Netanyahu specifically fostered and built up. Bibi twisted arms to get Qatar to host them. Now of course everyone gives Qatar crap about that. But they do have real engagements with Israel. Likud just treats them like a client state or colony emblazoned with the symbol of the enemy people who need to be expunged, and takes every opportunity to make additional steps in that direction. Get up on google, do a little research for a change, and look up Israeli news before October 7. Look up second Nakba and plans for Gaza and West Bank. Look up Itamar Ben-Gvir. “Get educated” as they say

Israel Victors of civil war in 1948 ?
Israel Victors of 6 day war in 1967 ?

Qatar Aid money was meant to be spent on Food, Shelter and Healthcare, it was meant to bring more stability and provide relief.
It dose seem stupid because since money appears to have go into weapons and rockets
I would assume that you already knew this.

Yes I looked at history of the region, all of the history including all the terrible things must be considered

 

[NinjaCow64]

MUCH FREEDOM

What are you trying to say here? Are you saying people shouldn’t rise up against near-absolute Monarchies?

 

[FriendlyFire]

What are you trying to say here? Are you saying people shouldn’t rise up against near-absolute Monarchies?

Pray tell me what government would the Palestinians have installed ?

 

[NinjaCow64]

Pray tell me what government would the Palestinians have installed ?

The leading Palestinian faction in that conflict were Socialists, so they presumably would have installed a Socialist government.

 

[Sarin]

So if these are the facts, why did you bother asking Estebonrober "what's worse" r.e. water access, pitting Hamas allegedly digging up pipes, and Israel bombing them in retaliatory strikes?

This is exactly why Crezth responded how they did. What you asked for was a value judgement, and for that, more data was required. The data you've provided, the facts as you call them, are pretty reasonable in my eyes, but at the same time provide little-to-no value r.e. the original question about water access.

That was more a rhetorical question to illustrate one thing: Gazans are f***ked either way. And I'm sorry, but there really is no other right word for it. The only thing that could possibly prevent a total genocide is if there's a change of prevailing mentality on both sides.

 

[Gorbles]

That was more a rhetorical question to illustrate one thing: Gazans are f***ked either way. And I'm sorry, but there really is no other right word for it. The only thing that could possibly prevent a total genocide is if there's a change of prevailing mentality on both sides.

I don't disagree, but I also think the Israeli state could make life much easier for Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank), which in turn would reduce support for Hamas (or at least, the current direction Hamas are going in). It wouldn't even need to increase the risk to Israeli citizens. Heck, handling out rifles to settlers and letting them go wild in the West Bank arguably increases the risk to said settlers by incentivising life-or-death situations (however disproportionately, as Palestinians in the West Bank don't have the same equipment, are just trying to live their lives, etc).

 

[Kyriakos]

When you are shocked and appalled by 1400 dead, but then feel it's fine to kill 10.000, it shows that for you the "other side" isn't really human. Considering that almost 5000 children have died in Gaza by the israeli bombing, how is one supposed to still view this as not a massive war-crime?
Hamas is jihadist and terrorist. 5000 children aren't likely to have been in Hamas.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The leading Palestinian faction in that conflict were Socialists, so they presumably would have installed a Socialist government.

What a wholesome and wonderful government

Abu Nidal's Fatah Revolutionary Council was split by an internal power struggle in which 150 members were killed including at least 20 leaders. The split had occurred because of different ideas
Muhammad Huwayya, a Fatah official, was assassinated by unknown gunmen.

 

[W|M]

SUCH OPPRESSION




Why am I not surprised
Isnt it always that way, amazing how the "Oppression" came first and never ever it was a result of certain actions of the Palestinians

Torture is illegal in Jordan, however it remains widespread. According to a report by Amnesty International, intelligence agents in Jordan frequently use torture to extract confessions from terror suspects. Common tactics include, "beating, sleep deprivation, extended solitary confinement, and physical suspension." Palestinians and suspected Islamists are treated especially harshly. Though Jordan has improved many procedures including a prison reform campaign in partnership with EU in this respect, agents at the General Intelligence Department remain largely immune to punishment.[35][36]

In May 2010, the UN Committee against Torture reiterated long-standing concerns at Jordan's failure to investigate and prosecute allegations of torture, to provide adequate protection against torture, and to prosecute perpetrators in accordance with the seriousness of the crime. It noted the "numerous, consistent and credible allegations of a widespread and routine practice of torture and ill-treatment" including in General Intelligence Department (GID) and Criminal Investigations Department detention.[37] The government did not respond to the committee's recommendations

 

[Broken_Erika]

Meanwhile, Jewish settlers are on a rampage in the West Bank

https://twitter.com/x/status/1721366954701946919