[RD] Hamas/Israeli War News One: Hostages and Invasion

[NinjaCow64]

Not a jew so cant speak for them but generally they consider it a call for genocide, or to a lessor extent offensive

Many Jewish people do not consider it as such.

Its a little weird though, like half of history is missing
The half where the Arabs tried to genocide the Jews, or the bad things that other side did, which should be weighed up and considered

This is just blatantly historically inaccurate. To claim that Palestinian Arabs have tried to genocide the Jews is ridiculous.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Defend Russia no matter what
Complains about defending inept regime

I find it deeply confusing how people who are among OT’s greatest Ukraine supporters support Ukraine and not Palestine.

Like you can see through Russia’s lies about the invasion of Ukraine being an attempt to “get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine” as being utter rubbish and that the real reason the invasion is happening is a blatant land grab.

But you can’t see through Israel’s lies about the invasion of Gaza being an attempt to “get rid of Hamas”? You can’t see that its a land grab?

 

[Lexicus]

Complains about attempt to derail the current line of inquiry

I don't think it's a derailment at all, since the question of why the Ukraine heads seem willing and able to excuse Jew-hatred and indeed Jew-murder on the part of some of their national heroes, but seem to think it's a dealbreaker for the Palestinian resistance gets to the heart of why the US is cheering on (and indeed arming) a genocidal maniac in Netanyahu while pretending to stand for a "rules-based international order" in Ukraine.

 

[E.man]

U.S. about to señd half a billion dollars of munitions to Israel .

Also says "stop fighting".

Sounds legit.

 

[keli]

I find it deeply confusing how people who are among OT’s greatest Ukraine supporters support Ukraine and not Palestine.

Like you can see through Russia’s lies about the invasion of Ukraine being an attempt to “get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine” as being utter rubbish and that the real reason the invasion is happening is a blatant land grab.

But you can’t see through Israel’s lies about the invasion of Gaza being an attempt to “get rid of Hamas”? You can’t see that its a land grab?

Let me chip in here.

In case of Ukraine, it's obviously a good vs evil conflict. Ukraine never once was any threat to Russia or to its citizens. I won't expand more on this, not the right thread.

In case of Palestine vs Israel, the morality is much more complex. We have Israel, a quasi apartheid state, which is indeed blatantly land grabbing, led by a typical right-wing authoritarian strongman, who leans on religious extremists to rule.
However, on the other side you have Palestinians and other Arabs who wanted to destroy Israel and kill the jews for 70 years now, launching multiple wars. They let a religious fanatic militia stay in power, which then conducted the largest terrorist act against Israel in its history. This was partially facilitated by those Palestinians who were working in Israel, hence abusing the given trust. Furthermore, this act is cheered by a lot in Gaza. Just remember that video where the guy is cheering when he sees Hamas rockets flying, knowing full well those are unguided missiles fired at civilians. We know how that video ends...

Hamas has majority support with around 52% in the Gaza strip. Just like with Putin and Russians, those Gazans who support Hamas are responsible for what's happening. It's not just Hamas.
Furthermore, hatred is ingrained in Palestinians, they actively spread anti-jewish hate around the world and harass jewish people across Europe. They hate Europeans and Westerners as well. They are bad refugees/migrants (mostly). They are aggressive, reject liberal values, have low language and professional skills, hard to integrate and are religious fanatics (you would be up in arms if you heard the same sh*t from the Catholic church).
In contrast, Ukraine hasn't launched terrorist attacks against Russian citizens and has a democratically elected government, understand liberal values and universal European values much better. I also consider Russia to be a bigger danger to my well-being than Palestinians/Israeli.

Moderator Action: This is horrendously bigoted and has earned you time off from the thread. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Adding one last point, Lexicus will love this, but Ukraine is closer to us, and shares our values. I care much more about them than I care about Palestinians. I have the right to care to a different degree about different conflicts, as we established in this thread previously.

Still, Palestinians don't deserve to be displaced and murdered and Israel is indeed committing war crimes. But still, it's hard to feel sympathy, especially after 7 October.

In short, the Ukraine-Russia conflict is good vs evil, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is bad vs worse. We are only arguing about who is worse.


Also, let me reverse this. Why don't you care as much about the Ukraine conflict as you do about the Palestinian conflict (you clearly post a lost in this thread and none in the Ukraine thread)?

 

[Gorbles]

They let a religious fanatic militia stay in power

I don't think "let" has much to do with it. Heck, I don't even "let" my current Prime Minister stay in power; I have a single vote in a FPTP system. I don't "let" anyone" do anything. Even everyone voting en masse is still subject to the whims of our FPTP system, and that's in a democracy.

Hamas doesn't allow elections.

Adding one last point, Lexicus will love this, but Ukraine is closer to us, and shares our values. I care much more about them than I care about Palestinians. I have the right to care to a different degree about different conflicts, as we established in this thread previously.

Conflicts, sure. "values", however, deserve criticism

In short, the Ukraine-Russia conflict is good vs evil, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is bad vs worse. We are only arguing about who is worse.

And this is just silly. Ukraine didn't do anything to invite the illegal Russian invasion, but that doesn't make Ukraine good. There is no requirement on Ukraine as a nation-state for any level of morality, to recognise that the Russian invasion was a bad thing.

The same applies here. Saying Ukraine vs. Russia is "good vs. evil" and Palestinian-Israeli conflict is "bad vs. worse" is simply mapping your personal bias onto the factions involved.

(edited to clean up unnecessary "vs." language)

 

[keli]

I don't think "let" has much to do with it. Heck, I don't even "let" my current Prime Minister stay in power; I have a single vote in a FPTP system. I don't "let" anyone" do anything. Even everyone voting en masse is still subject to the whims of our FPTP system, and that's in a democracy.

Hamas doesn't allow elections.

Well then, someone has to get rid of Hamas. Either Gazans do it internally, or someone else has to. Same with Putin, but nuclear weapons complicate the picture.

 

[Akka]

That remins me of something I read about how japanese soldiers who did the massacre of Nanquing explained their actions later. "when we killed them we thought of them as pigs".

You are at the moral level of war criminals. And trying to justify war crimes the same way those crimes were justified in previous instances. In the past many wars were fought where large scale massacres happened, many others where they didn't. And every participant in those knew about killing animals (in the oast everyone did it), and had come to know about killing humans. Still, not everywhere were such massacres and dehumanization of civilians happening.

Not every army descends to that level. It takes individuals coming from already sick societies. Going along with the propaganda that dehumanizes the other. Contrary to what Goebbels said, it does not work every time.

Don't worry mate, just think of them as Ukrainians and you'll be fine, you certainly weren't upset about civilians being killed when it was by anti-western powers.

 

[Moriarte]

I find it deeply confusing how people who are among OT’s greatest Ukraine supporters support Ukraine and not Palestine.

Not that confusing after you calibrate the analysis within geopolitical axis. Aligning yourself with the right people is far more advantageous than the alternative.

 

[Snowygerry]

Don't worry mate, just think of them as Ukrainians and you'll be fine, you certainly weren't upset about civilians being killed when it was by anti-western powers.

Gaza is apparently is in the same league as Mariupol en Mosul now.

Gaza nears Mosul and Mariupol as deadliest urban conflict

If the current trends remain unchanged, the campaign in Gaza will be on track to becoming one of the deadliest urban conflicts in recent history.

euobserver.com

The recent historic record of urban operations is sobering; the nine-month battle over Mosul aiming to dislodge ISIS resulted in 9,000-10,000 civilians killed, while the 2022 siege of Mariupol is estimated to have killed more than 10,000 civilians.

 

[Snowygerry]

I find it deeply confusing how people who are among OT’s greatest Ukraine supporters support Ukraine and not Palestine.

Like you can see through Russia’s lies about the invasion of Ukraine being an attempt to “get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine” as being utter rubbish and that the real reason the invasion is happening is a blatant land grab.

But you can’t see through Israel’s lies about the invasion of Gaza being an attempt to “get rid of Hamas”? You can’t see that its a land grab?

We have a clear interest here in spoiling the Russian plans to dominate eastern Europe, while we have no dog in the fight over the Holy Land, that should really surprise no one.

International politics is all about well-understood self-interest.

 

[Gorbles]

Well then, someone has to get rid of Hamas. Either Gazans do it internally, or someone else has to. Same with Putin, but nuclear weapons complicate the picture.

The problem with removing Hamas is that it doesn't remove the material conditions that lead to Hamas being where they are. Who supported them against Fatah? Who continues to support the expelling (at gunpoint) of civilians in the West Bank?

If you remove Hamas, these conditions will still exist. The Israeli right-wing will still play politics amongst the remaining Palestinian or wider Middle-Eastern extremists, just like they did with Hamas. They'll continue to take Palestinian land. They won't stop magically doing this with Hamas gone, and any international pressure that exists in that hypothetical already exists now. It just needs to be leveraged.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I find it deeply confusing how people who are among OT’s greatest Ukraine supporters support Ukraine and not Palestine.

Like you can see through Russia’s lies about the invasion of Ukraine being an attempt to “get rid of the Nazis in Ukraine” as being utter rubbish and that the real reason the invasion is happening is a blatant land grab.
But you can’t see through Israel’s lies about the invasion of Gaza being an attempt to “get rid of Hamas”? You can’t see that its a land grab?

Palestine overthrowing Jordan government because its a Monarchy - YES
Israel overthrowing Gaza government because its is a Theocracy - NO its a land grab

Would it help if Israel installed a (check notes) Socialist government in Gaza ?

 

[keli]

The problem with removing Hamas is that it doesn't remove the material conditions that lead to Hamas being where they are. Who supported them against Fatah? Who continues to support the expelling (at gunpoint) of civilians in the West Bank?

If you remove Hamas, these conditions will still exist. The Israeli right-wing will still play politics amongst the remaining Palestinian or wider Middle-Eastern extremists, just like they did with Hamas. They'll continue to take Palestinian land. They won't stop magically doing this with Hamas gone, and any international pressure that exists in that hypothetical already exists now. It just needs to be leveraged.

Indeed this is also a problem. But it doesn’t invalidate the need to remove Hamas.

So first, remove Hamas, second, try to work out some solution, which guarantees some kind of coexistence.

 

[Akka]

Gaza is apparently is in the same league as Mariupol en Mosul now.

Gaza nears Mosul and Mariupol as deadliest urban conflict

If the current trends remain unchanged, the campaign in Gaza will be on track to becoming one of the deadliest urban conflicts in recent history.

euobserver.com

And I'd say, I'm pretty sure Mariupol and Gaza numbers are even vast underestimates. I wouldn't be surprised if the tally reaches the 100 000 each when all the dust settles.

And this is just silly. Ukraine didn't do anything to invite the illegal Russian invasion, but that doesn't make Ukraine good. There is no requirement on Ukraine as a nation-state for any level of morality, to recognise that the Russian invasion was a bad thing.

The same applies here. Saying Ukraine vs. Russia is "good vs. evil" and Palestinian-Israeli conflict is "bad vs. worse" is simply mapping your personal bias onto the factions involved.

(edited to clean up unnecessary "vs." language)

Was this nitpicking really necessary ? I'm pretty sure everyone understood the point, even if "good vs evil" was used rather than "right vs wrong".

I find it deeply confusing how people who are among OT’s greatest Ukraine supporters support Ukraine and not Palestine.

Just like many Russia supporters suddenly discovers their moral outrage when it's Palestinians being blown to bits rather than Ukrainians ?

As was explained already, there is three main reasons :
1) Ukraine vs Russia is a very clear-cut case of unprovoked and unwarranted aggression, while Israel vs Palestine is a much more complex affair with a lot of ugly baggages on both sides.
2) People care more for events they feel closer to them (be it geographically, politically, culturally or whatever).
3) Some people are simply entrenched ideologues and will happily cheer (or at least smugly support) from their favourite side what they loudly condemn from the other.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Prominent Palestinian activist arrested in West Bank​

Palestinian activist Ahed Tamimi has been arrested by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank.
Tamimi, 22, was detained overnight in the village of Nabi Saleh, the Palestinian Prisoners' Society says.
Israel's military told the AFP news agency she was suspected of "inciting violence and terrorist activities".
Meanwhile Israeli media reported that Tamimi was arrested in connection with a post on Instagram that threatened to "slaughter" Jewish settlers in occupied territories.
It's not the first time Tamimi has been arrested. She was convicted, when she was a teenager, in 2018 on charges of assaulting a soldier and incitement to violence in a video that went viral.

....... A little back ground information paints a different picture
Though I have to agree though that Israel settlement expansion is violation of the Oslo accords and illegal.

She wrote: “We will kill you, drink your blood and feast on your skulls.”
Ahed is closely related to Ahlam Ahmad al-Tamimi who transported the suicide bomber to the Sbarro restaurant in Jerusalem in 2001.
“I admit I was a bit disappointed, I had hoped for a larger death toll. Yet when they said "3 dead," I said: 'Allah be praised'...2 minutes later, they said on the radio that the number had increased to 5. I wanted to hide my smile, but I just couldn't. Allah be praised”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1721818796564807951

 

[Gorbles]

Indeed this is also a problem. But it doesn’t invalidate the need to remove Hamas.

So first, remove Hamas, second, try to work out some solution, which guarantees some kind of coexistence.

It doesn't invalidate the need, but it does change the order. If removing Hamas doesn't remove a Hamas-alike (because the conditions in place incentivise extremist attacks against the oppressing power), logically the only path to any actual improvement is to deal with the oppressing power itself - first.

Was this nitpicking really necessary ? I'm pretty sure everyone understood the point, even if "good vs evil" was used rather than "right vs wrong".

It's not nitpicking. keli sees the two situations as being fundamentally different, in that one has a "good" side and one doesn't. This is an important distinction, even if they admit that Israel is doing bad things. Because they're also viewing the Israeli-Palestinian discussion here over which is worse. That isn't the case when it comes to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (and honestly, I should just start describing the former as Israel's ongoing occupation of Palestine).

 

[Akka]

Indeed this is also a problem. But it doesn’t invalidate the need to remove Hamas.

So first, remove Hamas, second, try to work out some solution, which guarantees some kind of coexistence.

I don't see any way to have coexistence outside of reinstating the two-states solution that already floundered, and seems even more difficult to put in practice today.
At the absolute least, Israel should roll back all settlements in the West Bank and give the PA complete authority over the whole place, and Palestinians should stop attacks in Israel. I can't really see either one happening, not only due to a lack of political will, but also more fundamentally to a lack of trust toward the other side and also to, simply put, seething hatred about said other side.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I find the idea that “Russia vs Ukraine is simple, Israel vs Palestine is complicated” utterly rubbish. Conflicts between Russians and Ukrainians have existed long before Israel was even created but that doesn’t make the Russian invasion palatable. I am sure that I can find examples of Ukrainians not being perfect to Russians at some point in history, it would be stupid to claim that that makes Putin’s invasion okay.

I find the rhetoric of “I care about Ukrainians being killed in a war but I don’t care about Palestinians being killed in a war because I share cultural values with Ukrainians but I don’t share cultural values with Palestinians” very racist.

I find the “I support Ukraine and Israel because both those nations support Anglo-European hegemony” idea profoundly cynical. If you really view the world like then you cede all pretence at morality, you are just mad at Russia and Hamas for daring to oppose your team. You don’t believe that warcrimes are actually bad because you’re happy when your team does it to your team’s enemies.

 

[Snowygerry]

I find the rhetoric of “I care about Ukrainians being killed in a war but I don’t care about Palestinians being killed in a war because I share cultural values with Ukrainians but I don’t share cultural values with Palestinians” very racist.

(...)

I share no values with either Israelis OR Palestinians, they care for gods and prophets, biblical promises of particular pieces of land, etc.

None of that means anything to me.

Thwarting a new (Russian) empire rising in the East, that is worth some discomfort. I see nothing racist in that, that is strategy.