Handle the (inevitable) Archer Rush

toob

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
65
Location
UTC + N(0,5) hrs
I do. Need help, that is.

I just moved to Monarch (on K-Mod, I've been there in BtS,v3.19).

Monarch = Prince + AIs (and barbs) start with Archery. (Anything else besides some small multipliers?)

How do you handle the inevitable archer rush? Versus a nearby Montezuma, we're talking ~2000-1500 BC. For sane AIs, 1500-1000 BC. (I generally play Epic, so ~t80=Montezuma, ~t120=say, Joao, for both that's on the early side. But don't doubt it: Gandhi will archer-rush you if things flop wrong.)

I've shifted to taking Archery between AH/BW, instead of after both. I used to mostly try to get it through the Internet for the lulz (I still try), but I can do that much less frequently with K-Mod.

So that's what we're here for. You're not a Deity player (for the purposes of this thread), so how do you handle it?
 
Archery is certainly a better tech with K-mod(and as a result, hunting have improved as a starting tech and the protective trait is decent :))

I was also forced to adjust my playstyle. In BTS I would often settle aggressively on the AI border to block land and I neglected my defense with just a few warriors to spawnbust barbarians. If possible I also try to settle in such as way that I don't have to defend multiple cities.

And of course, have units out so you can see when the enemy is coming. Look for any military buildup.
 
I came here wondering the same question after losing to a bunch of archers attacking me on immortal. There was just no freaking way to defend against it.

By around turn 55-80 I'll have 3 cities and 4 workers, and just finishing up granary/barracks and barely have military until 8 archers attack me... I found a way around it by giving the AI room to expand, or else they'll just spam units and want to use it.

You can also gift cities and open borders, hope they attack your other neighbor, but some AI will still plot at pleased. Mostly Shaka, Toku..etc against those ones I think you should just re-roll the map on immortal and deity.
 
I've been spamming a few k-mod games today and simpy put: Archer rushes sucks. They offer almost no counterplay and the risk/reward is in a really bad spot.

To be fair, regular BTS is way to soft. You shouldn't be able to walk 15 tiles to settle right in the AIs face without consequences, but K-mod takes it to the other extreme and that's worse. If you settle in their general direction be prepared to get rushed and not just by Monty&Co. Last game, Darius DoW'ed me 2440BC(immortal).

Gifting cities is an option, but doesn't that feels very cheesy? Other than that there's no other diplomatic options. Open borders bonus takes to long before it helps (and it's not that big bonus either). So as a player I don't feel I have enough tools to handle the challenge given. It basically boils down to

a) Pray to RNG-gods. This works pretty well often, but will fail miserably if you get declared on.
b) Cripple expansion and spam axes, spears and archers. Safe option, but makes it very hard to actually win.

If you roll a capital that isn't very good, you're screwed.
 
Lol I lost to a stack of longbowmen 1200 BC. Damn you oracle.

LOL.

I just got archers as usual, but Sury made sure to give me ten of those 1600BC. And he obviously chose me instead of worst enemy Asoka (or doing the sane thing and expand into all that precious land that was around him...)

After playing quite a bit of kmod I'm more sure than ever that Soren did the right thing when he intentionally prevented the AI from rushing.

AI gets archery for free on monarch and above to protect itself, not to exploit the imbalance. As I said in my previous post, there's no real counterplay to archer-rushes so it just feels punishing rather than challenging.

Also you never feel outplayed by the AI. It's not like you go "oh, that was a smart move".
 
After playing quite a bit of kmod I'm more sure than ever that Soren did the right thing when he intentionally prevented the AI from rushing.
Soren did not prevent the AI from rushing. There is nothing in the original AI which prevents the AI from declaring war right at the start of the game. In fact, I haven't made any direct changes to the AI's chance of planning early wars.

If early wars from the AI are actually more common in K-Mod, my guess is that it's only because they AI is better at actually completing their war preparations and thus able to effectively wage war.

I personally haven't had much trouble defending against the AI's archer rush wars. In fact, in my experience the AI is usually shooting itself in the foot by trying to attack me with archers, because I'm able to effectively defend with far fewer units and thus put the AI way behind economically. (Especially if I'm playing as a protective leader!)

Nevertheless, I do think the possibility of an effective archer rush from the AI is pretty unfair, and so for the next version I'm intending to implement a rule that blocks the AI from thinking about war until its time for the first barbarians to start spawning. If it turns out that still isn't enough, I'll try blocking it until the barbarians themselves get aggressive. (The barbarians don't start hunting cities until some time after they first start spawning. I'm not sure if that's common knowledge or not.)

In the mean time, here is my advice for avoiding early defeats from archer rushes:

To avoid being rushed
  • Don't settle close to the AI's borders
  • Don't box the AI in so that they have nowhere left to settle
  • Try to get them 'pleased' as soon as possible (either with trades, or religion).
The AI becomes far more likely to consider war when they have nowhere left to settle. The AI generally won't think an early war is worth the cost unless you're one of their close neighbours; and most AI's won't consider planning war against civs they are pleased with.

If you do happen to be close to an AI for whatever reason, here are some more tips:
  • Watch them: Before war, they'll build up a stack of units in one of their cities. They usually try to pick a city close to the border, and they prefer cities that you don't have vision of. So it's a good idea to keep one of your units close to their borders or even inside their land, and move the unit from time to time to check other cities for any buildup of troops.
  • Get decent defenders: don't try to guard your cities with only warriors. That's just asking for trouble.
  • Try to make your border cities defensively strong: if you have to settle close to an AI, try to position the city so that it is on a hill, or so that it creates a natural chokepoint where you can defend on a hill or a forest. Also, keep multiple defenders in that city. You should have as many defenders as you need so that you're confident that the AI couldn't immediately take the city before you can get reinforcements. Build walls in border cities before war is declared.
  • When at war, make sure your cities are connected by roads so that you can pull defenders out of your inner cities to defend your outer cities: If you are being invaded, you should be able to see which cities are safe and which cities are in danger. If you need more defenders, don't be afraid to leave zero defenders in your safe cities so that you can better defend your threatened cites. Is a key tactic that humans can use to get a numbers advantage over the AI. The AI never uses this tactic themselves.

--

In standard BtS, many 'pro' players essentially ignore archery and walls. Those are bad habits that one shouldn't bring to K-Mod.
 
Soren did not prevent the AI from rushing. There is nothing in the original AI which prevents the AI from declaring war right at the start of the game. In fact, I haven't made any direct changes to the AI's chance of planning early wars.

While I haven't looked at Civ4 code myself, DanF said in a post that the AI needs to be able to build 2 Attack Units in the capital before it will go into war-mode. So the AI needs to hook up copper first. I actually can never remember to have a BTS-AI declare on me with just a stack of archers.

So this code is still in place? Interesting. The reason I mentioned Soren is that he said he prevented it in a podcast.

On avoiding/preventing them: In the timeframe we speak of the only trade option is to gift a city. Its a solid choice, but a very cheesy one. Speaking of outer and inner cities when you only got 1 or 2 makes little sense.

I'm glad you looking at slightly delaying AI rushes.
 
While I haven't looked at Civ4 code myself, DanF said in a post that the AI needs to be able to build 2 Attack Units in the capital before it will go into war-mode. So the AI needs to hook up copper first. I actually can never remember to have a BTS-AI declare on me with just a stack of archers.

So this code is still in place? Interesting. The reason I mentioned Soren is that he said he prevented it in a podcast.
Well perhaps you're right after all. The original code has a strategy called AI_STRATEGY_GET_BETTER_UNITS. The effect of this strategy was that it would cause the AI to focus on techs that granted better units; but also, the AI generally wouldn't play for war if it was using this strategy.

In the original code, the determination of whether the AI should use this strategy or not was very simplistic. It essentially just counted how many different types of units they had - and it would use the strategy if it had fewer than 2 "attack units", with a very broad definition of what counted as an attack unit in this context.

In K-Mod, made some changes which allowed the AI to use this strategy through the whole game, not just at the very start of the game. In particular, they use it when their units are significantly weaker than the units of their enemies. (And so the AI generally won't start planning wars if their units aren't good enough.)

I also kept the original condition, so that the strategy would be used if there the AI had fewer than 2 'attack units', but I adjusted the definition of what counted as 'attack units' to actually include UNITAI_ATTACK...

Interestingly, I made a comment in my changes questioning whether or not the original code had left that out deliberately...
Code:
/* original bts code
if (kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_RESERVE) || kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY)
	|| kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_COUNTER) || kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_PILLAGE)) */
// K-Mod. Original code was missing the obvious: UNITAI_ATTACK. Was this a bug? (I'm skipping "pillage".)
if (kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_ATTACK) || kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY)
	|| kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_RESERVE) || kLoopUnit.getUnitAIType(UNITAI_COUNTER))
// K-Mod end
The code was meant to be counting 'attack units', so it seemed obvious to me that it should include UNITAI_ATTACK, especially if it's counting 'reserve' and 'counter' units which may be entirely unsuitable for attack purposes.

But now we come to the crux of the matter: archers and warriors both count as UNITAI_ATTACK, and so if the AI starts with archery, they then probably won't start with the GET_BETTER_UNITS strategy - and so they may think about war sooner than they would have in the original code.

So I guess you're right that the original AI was blocked from considering early war more than in K-Mod.

I'm not sure if that was by design though. Maybe it was, but to me it seems like a pretty flaky was of doing it because there were a bunch of arbitrary connections which were all necessary for the block to take effect.
  • Ignoring UNITAI_ATTACK while claiming to count "attack units" weird, and sounds like bug. (but maybe it wasn't.)
  • The UNITAI tags attached to the units are pretty arbitrary and could easily be different. For example, both archers and warriors have 'attack' and 'city defense' but no other tags, whereas musketmen have 'reserve' in addition to those two tags.
  • The name of the strategy "get better units" sounds to me like it is about getting better units rather than being about avoiding wars.
  • The threshold number of these so called "attack units" (ie. 2) is arbitrary. I don't doubt now that it was chosen post hoc to meet a specific objective after all the other conditions had been chosen.

I think it would probably make more sense for archers to have the 'reserve' tag, but not have the 'attack' tag, and for the counting of 'attack units' for that strategy to not include 'reserve'. With those two changes together, the early wars would once again be blocked... but on the other hand, the "get better units" strategy should probably only prevent the AI from considering wars against teams which already have better units - in which case archer rushes would not be blocked.

My point is that if the goal of all this was to prevent the AI from considering early wars, then they probably should have coded it in directly in a way like I'm intending to do, rather than have it rely on a the combined effect of a hodge-podge of conditions, each of which don't make a great deal of sense.

I guess this is just another example of where 'fixing' stuff can have unintended consequences. (There have been more extreme cases than this, where fixing something that is very obvious a bug has resulted in the AI becoming completely incompetent and thus requiring further changes in seemingly unrelated parts of the code.)

On avoiding/preventing them: In the timeframe we speak of the only trade option is to gift a city. Its a solid choice, but a very cheesy one. Speaking of outer and inner cities when you only got 1 or 2 makes little sense.
As I mentioned, religion and keeping some distance are also options that are often available (but not always desirable).

In any case, perhaps the tweaks to this stuff are something to look forward to for people who have been bothered by the early wars.
 
there were a bunch of arbitrary connections which were all necessary for the block to take effect.

See, just the way Firaxis would do it ;)

Seriously, thanks for a well-written response. I'm definitely looking forward for future versions of kmod. It's amazing work you have done.
 
See, just the way Firaxis would do it ;)

Seriously, thanks for a well-written response. I'm definitely looking forward for future versions of kmod. It's amazing work you have done.
I echo this, the suggestions here seem quite sensible.
 
Guys I'm sorry but I have to completely disagree with the general consensus in this thread - that AI archer rushes are unfair. I have never seen the AI archer rush me for no reason. Every time I have been archer rushed it is because I settled cities aggressively right on the AI's border. Often that isn't even enough. Often the AI archer rushes me because I completely blocked it in with cities and refused to open borders, or I placed a couple of cities right next to the AI capital and started choking them with culture like from a religious holy city. I mean.... come on... are you really going to complain about that? Do you really want to play against an AI that doesn't react to what you're doing and doesn't try to counter you? Why are you playing Kmod in that case?

If I were to aggressively spam cities next to the capital of a human player and then rush libraries in them for culture while defending them with only warriors, I would expect my human opponent to rush his archers at me and I want Kmod AI to do the same.

Also, if Kmod AI even does try to archer rush me for no reason - as in my cities are far away - let it. As Karadoc pointed out, the AI does itself a disservice in that case.

So I have absolutely no problem with the AI being able to make use of its archers effectively. I don't want the AI to sit and twiddle its thumbs while I block it off with a creative leader, for example.
 
Guys I'm sorry but I have to completely disagree with the general consensus in this thread - that AI archer rushes are unfair. I have never seen the AI archer rush me for no reason.

Well if you never have been on the receiving end of a 2000BC-archer rush, then of course you don't view it as unfair.

However, my experience was plenty of archer rushes. Even when I settled my 2nd city in the opposite direction I got hit by a stack of archers around 2000BC. It wasn't about aggressive settling right on the AIs doorsteps at all.

And even if its a disservice to itself, it still manages to cripple the human even if it hurts itself in the process. So no, walking a huge distance just to abuse starting techs is not ok.
 
I've seen plenty of archer rushes at 2000BC. I don't think you actually read my post. Please read it again. If you can't be bothered to read it then don't reply to part of it. Either reply to what I said or don't bother replying at all, seriously.
 
I always read the entire post before I reply.

I have experienced (lots of) archers rushes for no reason. No one is complaining about the AI declaring war if you settle aggressively towards them. This is about getting rushed when you DON'T do anything that should annoy the AI.
 
Okay, I see then. Yes that would be annoying. I've been playing Kmod for years, though, and I can't recall ever experiencing that (prince to emperor difficulty). In fact, the last time I was even archer rushed at all was several versions ago. Are you guys still getting archer rushed in the latest version?
I wonder if high level (say emperor and up) Kmod even needs to start with archery. Kmod AI is already quite competitive.
 
I got archer rushed in 2 games this year (out of ~15)
One time we shared borders, the other time I had almost no military due to Great Wall as first project after worker(immortal diff.). I reloaded the last game from the beginning auto-save and tried to build some military to see what happens and Louis rushed again (he had no access to horses or metal). I reloaded again, teched imm. to archery and whipped 5 archers. Then Louis attacked his other neighbour with an archer rush.
So it seemed, that he felt somehow the need to be aggressive in the beginning and choosed archer rush every time, because the lack of military resources. I still consider that not unfair. 2000BC everybody can have 5 defending archers, which should be enough. Of course you have to see it coming before war is declared...
 
There was just no freaking way to defend against it.

... and just finishing up granary/barracks and barely have military


There is.
Dont be too building-greedy! You started building nice infrastructure, when your defense-power was still almost nonexistant.

Dont start building Granaries before you have 2 Archers per City, at a bare minimum, just so that you dont look too weak (which you are). Warriors are only marginally good for Barbarians. A bordercity which lies in the path of a possibly invasion needs 4 to be save.

Barracks are only worth the hammers when you build up an attack / counterstrike-force.
 
Top Bottom