[BTS] Hannibal deity mess

[Pangaea]

...or Hannibal deity map :-/

Got bored with the game I was playing as I was just going through the motions, so figured I'd try my hand at deity again, although I'm not at all comfortable there. Sorry for the luscious start, it was the third map I rolled, and I'm not going to take on those vast plains with a plains cow, thank you very much.

Settings are Fractal with medium sea level, no huts/no events. Everything else was randomised, including our own leader.



I actually settled in place. Maybe the first mistake.

Used early units for fogbusting and got some nice spots, but I got boxed in at 3 cities, with tundra north so I didn't exactly rush up there. Very annoyingly, a barb city spawned close to where I intended to settle the 4th. I had the area covered, but of course that single tile was foggy, so they could technically settle there, which they did

Got out some axes and took it in 1200 BC or whenever it was. Then geared up for war against HC, with catas, axes and the odd elephant. He had a big stack in the closest city, so I went there. He wasn't plotting, so not sure what that was about. City capture went fine. We lost a few guys because he countered, but my axes took out all his attacking swords, so that was allright.

However, after this things have gone a bit pearshaped. He settled north of me in the tundra so the front is big, but those cities are nothing worth taking, so I decided to go for a juicy 10-11 pop Tiwanaku instead. Have taken it now, but he retook Ollantambourineman Maybe I can retake it again next turn, but I seem a bit stuck at the moment. The stack that took Tiwanaku is probably too light now to really move further, so I need reinforcements. Not good when that happens early in a war against deity AIs.

Oh yes, I almost forgot. He just got Feudalism. I had some hope before that.

So... is the game essentially a goner already?

Spoiler :

When I declared



The messy situation

 

[Olafeson]

Obviously it will be hard to take him out completely now. He will upgrade his archers to longbows propably next turn. So make sure you attack this turn while you can and weaken them. Happy cap still seems good, you got a lot of happyness resources.

I think the stack that retook the city was probably his army. You can wipe it out, combine your armies and go for cuzco. With your big army, almost 30 guys including 12 catas you can definetly still take cuzco. Even when he has like 4 or 5 longbows in there. Sure, you ll lose all your catapults, but i think the land is worth it. So many floodplains and rivertiles, which you can cottage and you are FIN. 7 cities, an acadaemy already in capital, and maybe an academy in his capital. Plus he will be so weakened that he probably won t recover.

Sure you will not be able to completely wipe him out, but if you manage to capture cuzco i am sure that you are in a good spot. Even without cuzco, that are 5 to 7 new floodplains. I do not think that you are in too bad of a spot right now. Maybe take 2 workers with your army and try to lure out defenders in cuzco.

If he has not like 8 or 10 longbows in cuzco you should be fine.

 

[mighty gandhi]

...or Hannibal deity map :-/

Got bored with the game I was playing as I was just going through the motions, so figured I'd try my hand at deity again, although I'm not at all comfortable there. Sorry for the luscious start, it was the third map I rolled, and I'm not going to take on those vast plains with a plains cow, thank you very much.

Settings are Fractal with medium sea level, no huts/no events. Everything else was randomised, including our own leader.



I actually settled in place. Maybe the first mistake.

Used early units for fogbusting and got some nice spots, but I got boxed in at 3 cities, with tundra north so I didn't exactly rush up there. Very annoyingly, a barb city spawned close to where I intended to settle the 4th. I had the area covered, but of course that single tile was foggy, so they could technically settle there, which they did

Got out some axes and took it in 1200 BC or whenever it was. Then geared up for war against HC, with catas, axes and the odd elephant. He had a big stack in the closest city, so I went there. He wasn't plotting, so not sure what that was about. City capture went fine. We lost a few guys because he countered, but my axes took out all his attacking swords, so that was allright.

However, after this things have gone a bit pearshaped. He settled north of me in the tundra so the front is big, but those cities are nothing worth taking, so I decided to go for a juicy 10-11 pop Tiwanaku instead. Have taken it now, but he retook Ollantambourineman Maybe I can retake it again next turn, but I seem a bit stuck at the moment. The stack that took Tiwanaku is probably too light now to really move further, so I need reinforcements. Not good when that happens early in a war against deity AIs.

Oh yes, I almost forgot. He just got Feudalism. I had some hope before that.

So... is the game essentially a goner already?

Spoiler :

When I declared



The messy situation

Settle in place seems not best. I would have surely gone for the warrior position to take 2 gold mines. Have enough food for that.

 

[Fippy]

Attack Olla with everything you can this turn (Cats should start with very good odds), take back next one and cease fire.
Gather your stuff in Tiwa (should be much better without culture blocking now, they can rest this turn yup not a good enuf stack yet), and move with 1 big stack towards Machu first, then Cuzco.
Remember to bring as many new units from your cities as you can, if you win this war the game should be in very good shape ~~

I would switch into HR now + OR, good timing cos your main stack rests anyways.
Only dangerous AI for you here should be Giggles, and he likes HR.
Can make up a bit for declaring on HC.

 

[Pangaea]

Sorry for the late reply, and thanks to the advice from both of you (and indeed that it was probably a mistake to SIP - I just don't like to 'lose' a turn on Deity).

Unfortunately most of my units can't attack the recently lost city this turn, but you are right that I should throw what I have at it and hope for good fortune, because next turn those archers are almost certainly longbows, which are tough as hell. I also regret something from earlier, so it's tempting to replay a few turns. Before moving everybody of the 'forward' stack into Tiwanaku, I thought about moving some of them towards Ollan. It was just one tile away, and it looked tricky whether my guys could defend the city, since there were some HC spears and I mostly had elephants in catas in there. I was worried about a stack attacking Tiwanaku, so moved everything in there. Quite possibly a mistake, at least in hindsight.

Will continue the game, maybe this evening. I'm not feeling very confident, but Fippy's plan sounds allright. Hope to retake the city, then CEASE fire. Gather and heal all units I can in Tiwanaku, then march onwards. Just hope Tiwanaku doesn't fall too. It's awkward when you are surrounded in all directions. Deity AIs can pretty much one-turn units everywhere, and the odd sword and cata here and there will cause problems sooner or later. Just like with Ollan from those northern cities, who kept landing in the lone forest, making it very hard to counter them.

 

[Olafeson]

Agree, fippy is right, if you cease fire he will probably not spam as many longbows tto guard his remaining cities.

 

[Pangaea]

Well then, I continued the game with @Fippy's plan, and it worked out well

Threw all catas at the city and attacked with the units able. All catas actually survived and we got rid of two spears and an archer, and the remaining archer was down to 0.8 2.7 after the upgrade to longbow, which we dealt with just fine.



Then cease fire. Heal up units and get most to Tawanaku, and I'll march on Macchu Picchu next. It's only two tiles away. I don't like having so many cities around me though, as those northern cities can cause issues (again). And likewise around Tiwanaku. I can't leave one unit and march with the rest. Too risky. A little frustrated I attacked with the axe on the iron, as otherwise I could have stolen the worker on the silver once the city fell. Would have been useful.

Didn't change civics that turn either, as I wanted to get out a few more units and complete CoL. Will do it now. Suppose it will the same old story again. Double-switch to HR+OR, then never adopt a religion because it's too risky diplomatically, and pay the extra cost of OR for 2000 years without any benefits Hinduism is well-spread by Saladin, but it looks a bit risky to me given Gilga and Wang are Jews and on top of the chart. Don't want to annoy them, especially Gilga with 9 cities.

Huayna still have a bunch of cities and I'm not all that confident about the future, but if I can snag Macchu and Cuzco, that will set him back considerably. Thankfully neither is on hills. Then maybe sit back and try to lib Cuirs again? Provided I don't get too screwed by HC culture, the land should be pretty good with all those FPs.

 

[Pangaea]

Woot! Good news, everybody!

Rough and I had to be real careful with unit movements and what to put where, but I've managed to take Macchu Picchu and Cuzco. Also got CS in 25AD, and it should be safe to convert now. The most awkward thing was a counter stack against Tiwanaku with 5 catas in it. They never had enough units to take the city, but reinforcements kept getting killed, and I whipped the place HARD (it was size 7 when we took it) to survive. What ultimately got rid of the stack was a GG. I only had 3 guys in there, and I blew the GG on them, thus promotion healing them. The first had 70% odds and won, and after that it was okay. Two guys outside Cuzco could also attack, after Cuzco's borders were gone. Phew!!

Here is from the new DOW



And when Cuzco fell and the stack outside Tiwanaku has died




Unfortunately HC won't talk now, probably because he killed a fair few units, plus I probably suicided more catas than I should have. Could have attacked with CR3 axes before I did. Small mistakes all the time, which is hard to get by with on Deity :-/

 

[Pangaea]

So, err... isn't this super-fast?




They're all teching fiercely fast here. Engineering that early is one thing, but Notre Dame as well? Wow. I've got some good land now, and since HC won't talk yet, I may as well try to snag Huamanga too. No food, but removing culture would be nice (although Giggles will take many tiles from the west). Have only 5 catas left now (most bombard), but if I throw them all at the city it should be okay. Cuzco only had 3 longbows.

Spoiler Empire and techs, still in T116/25AD :

Have settled a food-less city on the east coast. Figured those resources could come in handy, and HC would just take them otherwise. He had two settler parties moving through the tundra when I declared. Another settler will settle the stone too. Another poor city really, but stone will be nice to get, although most wonders are already gone. If nothing else, it can help with those cottages on the river north of Phoenician (former barb city). Eventually gaining those horses will be important too, since the longterm plan probably has to involve Cuirs -> Cavs.

Saladin stopped plotting and Giggles started plotting. I'm not sure on who, but I did notice a stack moving towards the east. So it could be against Hammurabi (the only person he isn't pleased with), a late dagger on HC, or..... ME! We'll see. I'll use the warrior there to try to keep tabs on it, and beg if the situation demands it. Him DOWing me would be very hard right now.


PS: Since I captured Paya, would it actually make sense to go Buro + Free religion?

 

[Fippy]

Good to see you doing well
What does Giggles think about HC, pleased? Could be him too cos he's so weak now.

 

[Pangaea]

Good to see you doing well
What does Giggles think about HC, pleased? Could be him too cos he's so weak now.

Yep, pleased with him too (+9, not that it matters).

About the query I edited in above, do you think it would make sense to go Free religion, or might they spread judaism to me so I can swap into that? Doesn't look like Hinduism is the brightest move here, considering both Wang and Giggles are Jews. The penalty won't be too harsh with them, but I prefer to have Pleased status. Makes things much safer.

 

[Fippy]

If all your cities have another Reli like Bud or Hindu, i fear they will not spread Juda..usually only seeing it in cities with none.
But free Reli makes sense yup, not like you will make use of OR soon.

 

[Pangaea]

There are the two newly founded cities it could spread to, but more likely Saladin will send Hindus quicker.

As an aside, I tried to start a few other maps, including the one I just posted in Lain's thread. The most recent looked like a fine start -- until Willem popped up nearby and placed two cities right in my face, with sea and mountains on two other sides. Yay. Boxed in with two cities or something like that. In another map Genghis popped up and declared in 1880BC, with Swords Getting reminded why I prefer Immortal, although winning there is a pretty safe bet. The start on Deity is so brutal. Almost always struggle to get a few good cities, and then those lovely barbs.

Sorry to be a bit negative right now I'll continue this game, as that was always the plan, but I felt like trying out some other starts instead of playing this game where I'm still alive in 2000BC with such a thundering headache. Hope it passes as I'm supposed to travel away this weekend.

 

[Pangaea]

Hadn't really intended this to be a forum game of sorts, but here we are

Therefore an update in 325AD.

Spoiler :

Last turn, shortly after converting to Buro + Free religion, nobody had started on CS yet. All would give me Feudalism + 10g. Next turn Hammurabi requires 220g for the same trade. Since it was possible to carry out a few trades, I therefore gave away CS. In return I get Feudalism, Theology, Metal Casting and 160g.

Continued the war on HC, wondering who Gilgamesh intends to DOW with his stack.



Turns out Huayna's problems just got a little bit worse...



Earlier I talked about trying to take Huamanga, to remove cultural pressure -- it also wasn't on a hill. Seems like Gilga had much the same thoughts. No siege, and he has the force to take it.



This isn't the whole stack we saw earlier, but plenty to take the city, which he does. Costs a bit though, and only 3 guys survive.

After this setback I move north towards Vilcas instead. Looks like a dire city, and on a hill. When we get there I see the rest of Gilga's stack, and it's partly been upgraded to Maces and Pikes. Poor city, so we move north yet again, towards Corih. It's size 8, which makes me assume there is seafood. Meet some guys on the way, and HC decided to reinforce Vilcas instead of moving back to Corih or suiciding into my stack. 9 guys in Vilcas now... I spend a turn to bomb down the walls, and attack next turn, suiciding a CR2 catapult, but a plain actually survived after that with almost 90% odds. Sadly lose a CR3 axe at 98% odds, but the other win and we take the city.

Huh. City in the snow and tundra with practically zero food nor any good tiles. Size 8. FML. The AI can grow anything, no matter how poor. Lots of infra too, 3 pieces actually survive, and I'm most thankful for the lighthouse. HC still won't cap. Dang! Puny little geezer with 4 terrible cities and practically no army.

At this point I had got a ministack in Ollan and was going to march on the crab-city further north. It looks half-decent, and is placed where I would have placed a city (had an "X" there way back). However, this same turn Gilga assaults Vilcas with 9 defenders, and takes it with seemingly no problems.

HC is finally ready to cap now. It's probably a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Either I cap him myself, or Gilga gets him next turn. People don't like HC all that much, so diplo will be trickier, but surely I'm still better off with him under my wings than under already 11-city Gilga...?

The situation in the north-west, with HC having lost a bunch of cities to Gilgamesh and yours truly.



The tech situation looks a bit bleak tbh. Wang got Paper this turn, so now I would have to pay Paper + 340g for Machinery. Not worth it. I'd prefer to get to Education instead and try to win Lib. Still lack Philo and Music, so not sure what I can do with Lib if I win it. Best outcome looks to be Nationalism.



This has me a bit concerned too. Should I be? No fist for Saladin and he's pleased with me, but I did turn down a request earlier to break off trade with Wang, his worst enemy. I'm getting resources from everybody, so stuff like that would hurt me a lot. Do you think he has nefarious plans, or are they on the way to the city he very naughtily placed right in my face?



I've attached the save too, in case people want to look a bit closer. As mentioned I don't think I have much choice but to cap HC, right?

I've started on some Forges and have got up some libraries as well. Great tiles in the new cities, and I also need it to try to counteract Gilga's creativity.

 

[Olafeson]

@Pangaea

Looks to me like that small stack of saladin is heading to the brb city in the north. Also i would not vassal HC, he is hated universally, offers no techs and would ruin your relations with the other A.I.. I think it is better to let Giggles vassal HC so WK and Hammurabi will drop from pleased. WK might even be annoyed with Giggles if he vassals HC.

I would stay in war for the +diplo points with Giggles and WK. Also funny that you have the culture bug and the pig tile 1W of cuzco is out of your culture.

Looks pretty good to me, you can try for Lib, but it might be a race with WK if you are unlucky, looks to me he might be going for Lib too. Lib nationalism sounds good.
Classic Elepult attack into Cuirassiers domination ahead? Or will you crumble and be defeated in the end. One thing for sure. HC got smashed face first into the dirt by your excellent attack . And you are ina pretty good position, game is not won YET. I think saladin and Giggles still are a thread.

Also cool to see that someone finally got some value out of the Shwegadon pagode. Free Religion is a nice little extra. What do you think about settling the silver with a size 1 city ? It is always questionable if its worth the 100 hammers for a settler just to work a resource and stay at size 1. I like to do it. Maybe also raze the barb city for some extra cash. i would also settle the gold 2N2E of your capital Carthage. Again, long term investment and maybe not worth the 100 for another settler

So everything is fine, micro looks good aswell. Solid gameplay i would say. BUT WAIT. What is that?

hippo in the far east works a plains forest tile and not the improved silk? You have to have an eye for these small details or you ll never beat deity. Nah joke ofc. But thats rly like the only thing i could find to criticize.
( I switched it btw and it changed your research speed of education from 6 to 5 turns interestingly, so even small details like that can be important if you try to reach Lib first.)
Btw i really like your avatar. No homo.

(Also did play your game with Gilgamesh until Turn 100. Looks pretty good if you are interested to take a look in my Turn 100 gameplay, then i would upload the file. Maybe you have some advice for me too)

 

[Pangaea]

Think you're right about Saladin. Also noticed another Saladin stack going through my territory, so he's probably going up there.

Noticed the silk after posting the save, and wondered if it would be mentioned I usually micro all cities at the end of a turn, and hadn't gone through them yet. The city governor can do weird stuff, especially when building wonders and granaries. (edit: Nope, the silk was actually completed last turn, the worker can move this turn, so that was indeed a small mistake on my part).

Have actually thought about settling that northern silver city. Would be nice to get silver, and although the city will be poor, it can stay size 1 forever and just work the silver. Probably pays for itself in that way, but those 100 hammers is a big deal too. The extra capital gold is more tempting.

Are you sure about not capping HC, though? I think there is zero chance for the war to continue at this point, he'll surely cap to Gilga next turn if I don't grab him, so no more war sharing. Diplo-wise it won't be great, but I'm already concerned about a big Gilga. Gilga will probably gift HC everything and then HC can regain his status a little bit. Might be awkward for later wars too, if I manage to get something out of this game longterm and lib Cuirs or something like that, and declare on Gilga.

Am really torn about this decision, so haven't played on yet. Right now I can't trade with Hammurabi or Wang anyway (we fear..), but I'm close to Friendly with Hammurabi, and I can forget that with a capped HC. After the war ends, Wang will probably be Annoyed with HC, Gilga Pleased. Hammurabi still Annoyed. So in terms of relations with Gilga it shouldn't matter, but with the others it will be worse.

Haha, yeah that pig sure would be nice to have Sometimes the bug plays in your favour though. You can move forward into neutral territory and declare on another AI, before his borders expand and you lose 2-3 turns moving through it first before getting to his cities. Especially useful in Cuirs wars.

Thanks for the nice words btw. I'm glad this game worked out pretty well, all things considering. The other 6-7 starts I played for 50+ turns have gone poorly for one reason or another. In this one I really went "all in" for Axepults and added elephants. I've found I usually do better when located to one side of the map, so I don't get screwed by the AIs grabbing land from all directions. That said, Gold + Elephants is a luxury you'll only get in a small sample of games, so that helped a great deal, not least with the war effort. Charismatic has been pretty good too, as it's much easier to get CR3 axes. Faster CR2 or bombard catas too.

I will gladly look at your T100 save from the other game. I'm sure you are more confident at Deity than I am, but I can try to offer some advice nevertheless.