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Happiness Balance Discussion

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gazebo, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. dylansan

    dylansan Chieftain

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    Right, so unless @Gazebo implemented it much differently, I don't see where the problem is. Small changes to the median shouldn't affect the ratio of efficiency to the median that much. I don't understand why it would wildly swing at all.
     
    Omen of Peace and tu_79 like this.
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I'd like to suggest an ui change.

    I'd like to see, at once, what will be the net effect of growing in the city.
    Right now, I can see that my cities have 6 happiness sources (I have to sum them up) and because there are only 5 people in the city, total happiness is 5.
    Then, I can see that the effect of growing will add 1 illiteracy and remove 1 distress, and total unhappiness is 5, exactly the same as the city size.
    So, all these things taken into account, I can say that growing is going to increase net happiness.

    What I'd like to see is the tooltip giving me the direct effect on net happiness. Will it increase, decrease or remain the same upon growth? I actually don't really care if I'm gaining poverty or losing distress, I want the net simple value to help me make a faster decision.
     
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I agree this would help. But don't you also want to see how to address the coming unhappiness (ie, build a distress building)?
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    I already know it. You have current needs explained in the tooltip.

    We have to face two major decisions,
    What to build to improve happiness, and
    Whether to grow.

    For the first one we need to know where is unhappiness in the city coming from. For the second one we need to how net happiness is going to change upon growth.
     
  6. Txurce

    Txurce Warlord

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    I thought you were saying you were literally saying you "don't really care if I'm gaining poverty or losing distress." Now I understand.
     
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  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    What it says it's
    'On a new citizen, the city will gain:
    Distress: 2
    Illiteracy: -1'

    Anyone looking at this would think that unhappiness will increase in net. But then you also have to look at happiness tooltip. It may say:
    'Happiness 4
    Empire: 3
    Luxuries: 1
    Handicap: 1'
    3+1+1 is not 4, so I guess that actual happiness sources are 5, but it is limited to 4 due to city size. Therefore, if I let the city grow, I would gain 1 unhappiness source, but also 1 happiness source, making growth neutral.

    This is not clear. Just let me know the net happiness the city will gain on growth.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Current UI tells you the happiness and unhappiness changes on growth. Not just unhappiness.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Had to restart. Now it shows.

    Happiness with growth.jpg Unhappiness with growth.jpg

    Yes. It says now how much happiness it will gain on growth in the happiness tooltip, and how much unhappiness it will gain on growth in the unhappiness tooltip. Could we have the net happiness gain shown in the city banner briefing?

    Edit. Here:
    Banner happiness.jpg
     
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It does, at least in my current working version. Don't know when I added it though.
     
  12. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Could you post an image of how it should work? It migth be something related to Improved City View mod.
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It just includes both the 'on growth, happy:' and 'on growth: unhappy' elements

    G
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Nope. I just founded a new city to test this. In the happiness tooltip it says, with growth, happiness will increase by 1, but in the banner only unhappiness is shown.
     
  15. FaarmAnimal

    FaarmAnimal Chieftain

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    Please forgive that this is my first post. I love the mod and thanks to Gazebo and everyone else who has made it so amazing.

    I like that the happiness model has moved to a local model, but I feel that it should move even more towards simplicity.

    My suggestions:

    Eliminate the median system and needs (distress, poverty etc) entirely because:

    1) It has the appearance of complexity, yet in reality it is poor game design by being both obscure and shallow. local city population is perfectly adequate as a method for producing unhappiness. It is simple and works well with the integer based model.

    2) Food, production, science, culture and faith should all be a means to an end. They already have value and they don't need to have any bearing on happiness.

    I would also suggest scrapping local happiness for local happiness resources. It makes no sense since people gain happiness from the resource NOT the act of producing it.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I appreciate the post, but we’re not scrapping the median model. I prefer the granularity and nuance of it.

    G
     
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    To add more to this. One of the things about the median is it moves over time. A city can never settle on its heels, if left alone, a cities unhappiness will rise over time. That is its greatest appeal, it requires the user to tend to their cities in order to keep things on track. And as G said, it is very granular and nuanced.

    Now I have my peeves with that system, but what it fundamentally offers I fully agree with. So if we did drop it, it would have to have a great equivalent that could perform the same functions.
     
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  18. FaarmAnimal

    FaarmAnimal Chieftain

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    The unhappiness would rise as the population increases. No nuance required.

    The global happiness function can fulfill your other requirements. I would support renaming it to (empire) stability.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Nuance is a positive attribute - your use of the term sounds negative. Having 'happiness' stem from something other than just growth offers granularity, it makes your build order in a city reactive, as opposed to fixed, it allows for things like wars of attrition to matter, and it makes the yields from trade routes, religion, etc. have positive value beyond the yields themselves. Ultimately, that's the biggest draw: it moves empire management out of the realm of 'who can fill up buckets the fastest' and makes it a system in which you have to weigh the values of yields against the needs of your population.

    Also, note that, in VP, unhappiness != population. If all of your cities are maxed out on unhappiness relative to their population, you should be worried.

    G
     
  20. FaarmAnimal

    FaarmAnimal Chieftain

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    That is certainly a compelling argument Gazebo, however, I'm not sure that I see the kind of dynamism working in practice with regards to the needs mechanic, although I am happy to stand corrected.

    Sorry if I sounded negative. I assure you, I am loving the mod and I am merely throwing out a few thoughts.
     

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