Happiness? or Not.

Moulton

Monarch
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Messages
810
Location
Kentucky
What makes happiness? Yes, I have read the rules.
Lux and money for lux make people happy. Apparantly they turn content to happy, only, do not turn unhappy to content. Not sure.
Regent: 2 content, cathedral, doubled with Sistine, Colleseum, JSBach. Temple. Net= 11 content. Sometimes.
Add Marketplace and 7 lux = 16 happy.
In home cities, yes. Captures cities, maybe no maybe yes.
Go to war. Having Universal suffrage and police stations.
In one turn, no one is happy. Captured cities require 50% entertainment just to keep working.
6 turns later my democracy collapses, with about half of the cities observing WLTK.... including many captured cities.
I had been at peace for about 100 years before this war.

This is not a whine ... there must be ways to work around this.
You can't get territory without war. You cant get a high score without territory. You cant be in your best government ...
Any ideas?
 

eyrei

Deity
Retired Moderator
Joined
Nov 1, 2001
Messages
9,186
Location
Durham, NC USA
Were you the aggressor in the war? That has a huge impact on war weariness. I have still never had my government collapse. I really wish I knew why, so that I might tell my fellow civ3 players.
 

Moulton

Monarch
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Messages
810
Location
Kentucky
Related happiness:
I checked some Roman cities and English before I declared war.
Couple of Roman cities were 24 and 28 pop, with marketplace and 7 lux. Pop 29, 4 unhappy, 1 entertainer, no Lux tax. Didnt note how many content, about half, and 6 scientest.. Monarchy, with 2 content from the garrison. Hispalis, 28pop, 6 unhappy. Jerusalem, 12 pop, 6 unhappy, no market place. By my count, no city should have had more than 9 content, but they had as many as 12...
Since I was selling them 3 luxuries.... they happiness quotient changed dramatically when I went to war. I waited until 2 contracts ran out... and cancelled them. and Rome went into anarchy. Don[t know why... might have been changing gov, might have been a happiness rebellion...
English cities were what I had calculated them to be as far as happiness and content goes.
Rome had 3 too many, unless I missed something.
 

eyrei

Deity
Retired Moderator
Joined
Nov 1, 2001
Messages
9,186
Location
Durham, NC USA
I have seen war weariness in democracy completely eliminate happy citizens in the first turn if I am the aggressor. This makes it necessary to use enough entertainers to eliminate all unhappy people, which can be a lot.

As far as Rome having 3 too many happy citizens, I think there are other misc. factors that affect happiness, such as the 'negative' war weariness when someone declares war on you.
 

Moulton

Monarch
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Messages
810
Location
Kentucky
I was the aggressor, and yes it does have a huge impact... I exected trouble from the "foreign nationals" , but I expected my own cities to be better managed.
This is the third game I have had the gov collapse. No obvious reason that I can see. Like I said, I did whatever I had to do to maintain equilibrium, and most of my native cities were in WLTK, and many of the captured cities. I had no lux tax in place, but it has collapsed when I did in other games.
When it comes out, I will have to go to Republic, since Rome is not done.
 

loki

Warlord
Joined
Nov 19, 2001
Messages
145
Location
Paris, France
Indeed, when you are the one attacked under democracy or republic, you get free happy people BUT :

for a limited time ? i don't know how long.
how many ? no idea.
do you get them if you are recovering from a previous long war (with a lot of war weariness) ?

Many, many things aren't clear about how happiness, war weariness, etc... work . What are the real effects of the universal suffrage, police stations...

PLEASE DAN EXPLAIN US :love: !!!

That would help planning wars more effectively :ak47:

loki
 

Cerryl

Warlord
Joined
Nov 12, 2001
Messages
216
Location
Kansas City, Missouri
I've only seen Democracy collapse when you've had a city in disorder for too many turns. It's not near as bad as the prequels were, with 2 cities in disorder and it tumbles down.
 

BillChin

Prince
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Messages
494
I haven't figured out War Weariness quite yet. It is greatly increased if you attack. However, in a recent game, I was attacked and my cities went to 40% peace protesters in one turn! This is with Republic and Universal Suffrage! The previous war was about 25 turns ago but lasted like 100 turns. Go figure. Maybe because it was an overseas colony attacked and not my homeland, the people were protesting against overseas entanglements. Military victories and defeats also seem to be factored in, but it is all a black box to me right now.

My new theory is to stay out of Democracy if I ever want to fight a war of aggression. Universal Suffrage is not enough. The five turns of Anarchy in, and five turns out will wipe out any production bonus. The exception is for Religious civs with only one turn of Anarchy. Democracy is better suited for a United Nations, Culture, or Space victory than Conquest or Domination. Of course if a player is playing on a difficulty where he has tanks against pikemen, Democracy will probably be ok because all wars will be very short.
 

Moulton

Monarch
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Messages
810
Location
Kentucky
Well, one of my tanks killed a spearman last night, so it is not all bad:)
In a previous game, when I first applied the patch, the next war declared on me caused negative war weariness.. plus sever happy citizens, for about 5 turns. then neuthral, and evantually, war weariness took its toll. That sequence of evnets seems normal to me.

Earlier in this game, while in republic, aztec declared war on me--totally agression, they sent people to tool around in my spaces for no discernable reason, and when I objected, he declared war. And war weariness kicked almost immediately. At that time, I had about 40 cities of my own and half the previous Zulu empire. Zulu was also the agressor.
when the peace protesters got to be absouutlly too much trouble, I sued for peace. I had taken a dozen or so cities, in cluding his Forbidden Palace. :D
A few turns later he attacked again. I eliminated him in 1824. Total of 900 years war, never the agressor.
Later, I moved on to democracy, and Then in 1838, Iroquois declared war and I had not demanded that he leave... He just wanted war. This time the government collapsed, again with NO unhappy cities, few unhappy people. Entertainers, and 20% luxury tax. However, I had about 90 cities by this time, most of them conquered, Aztec and Iroquois, many previously having been Russian, Roman or Zulu. I was able to finish off the Iroquois empire before my anarchy ended, and re-established democracy. THat ended in 1906, with England , China, and Rome coming in on my side--everyone against the Iroq. I made alliances with Rome and China, after the war started, and ENgland refused to sign. Later she just jumped in.

I did start this last war in 1906, for no good reason, except that I did not want Rome to develop oil based units...
:D

In the case of Rome having extra happy people, war had not started, or I could not have investigated her city.
 

Dragon67

Warlord
Joined
Dec 9, 2001
Messages
253
My last game was the worst war game I have ever played. Most part of the game I was involved in something, and I still was lucky and won the tech race, and I succeeded to keep some kind of happiness throw the wars.
First the American attacked me fore no reason. He was on my continent, between Rome and me. I succeeded to make an alliance with Rome-Germany-Russia-England and Babylon against him. Since the whole continent was a one big war zone(all against all), the American succeeded to keep the stance against them all. The American was even on the offence against Rome, and Rome was close up to lose the game, and I could be in real danger. So what cold I do with my 6 mountain warriors and 2 cavalry? Short strikes and fled back was the only way out of it. I run into the American territory, took one of his cities and run back to heal them, and gave the captured cities to the Romans since I was to weak to defend them myself. With this kind of tactic I got few killed, and I had no problems with the happiness in my cities. So after about 20 turns the American asked me fore peace, I did agree with that since Rome had also had done that. But one turn later the American tried to blackmail me. So now it was no mercy, another war against them. In the second war I played the same tactic, and in the meantime the Germans was gone, the English had conquered them. So now the only war on the continent was all of us against the American, and that was the destiny of the American.
But before that the Greece attacked one of my small Iceland’s, and declared war against me. The Greece was living on another continent fare away from me, so I did not bother to engage my troops against them, I just allied me with the Egyptians and the Aztec, and they wiped him out after about 15 turns.
So fare so good, those wars had continued from 800BC-1800AD, I was the tech race leader, and still not have any disorder or such kinds of things yet, and I had even been throw the golden age.
And how did I manage that? With few losses, and to let the other civ's fight fore me, it did not harm me as badly as it did to them.
So now I had finally build a large army to conquest my own continent. I managed to wipe out the last nation in 1950AD, and the continent was finally mine. It was four short wars, but all of them with disorder in all of my cities. I believe the reason was that I started all those wars, and I got lots of hits and lots of losses.
So I believe that's the key why those things happens.
After that I involved me into another war, Egyptians Vs the Aztecs. The Aztec was close up to conquest the Egyptians, and if that happened they could have a whole continent they also. So I managed to ally all of the last nations against them. I nuked them with my ICBM's and I let the other's do the dirty work. That war did not ether harm my cities, since I never engaged my own troops.
Now it was only 5 left of us. The last war was Me-India and Egypt against China and France. This war was an economical nightmare. I first nuked the Chinese, to avoid them to double me. But I got a lot's of loosest(60 modern armour’s was destroyed) when I wiped out the French. My citizens were angry and destroyed lots of improvements all over my continent, and my income were now-300 each turn. I was close up to lose the whole game because of the economy. Some turns later after the last war, the game ended, because the game counted out(2050).

So what I have learned after that war-game is that it is possible to stay in a war if you NOT involve you own troops, and not get hits. Let the others start the war, and let them fight it fore you, if it's possible of course. The most successful war was against the American. With a guerrilla tactic, I got few loosest and the American’s suffered a lot since they lost their most valuable cities, in fast strikes. If you first decide to invade an opponent, make it as fast as possible, or you get the people against you, as it happend in the last war.
If you get many loosest it will infect the people, with few loosest it will make it easier.
My happiness slider was mostly on 10% I had two different kinds of luxuries from the beginning, and imported two others. I also played with democracy from it was available to the end at regent level.
 

Moulton

Monarch
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Messages
810
Location
Kentucky
Well, I played this one out, finally. Tried communism. Didnt like it. I couldnt suport my troops... losing 400g per turn,:(
Stayed in republic to the end, actually ended two ways..
First when I made peace, finally, only had 20 years left, so did not change back to democracy. Tried to rush as much culture as possible, trying to double China's score. Didn't make it, finished as retired, top score.
Went back to the peace year, and challenged China, demanded spices, the only luxury I didnt have. For Rubber, Saltpeter, Mororized Trans, 17 g per turn and 715 gold.... no way. So declared war. Never got to her spices, the island was too far away, and not enough time left. Won, finally, in 2043 by dominatin... It looked more like 75 or 80 % to me, rather than 66%.... Happiness became nearly unmanageable near the end.
Conquered cities had 2 content, only, no happy people.
I bombarded some, but mostly, just took a stack of tanks.
Bombed their ships, and then sank them with a nearby sub.

I did this the hard way.. on purpose. Greeks are neither high culture nor militaristic....
Will try another setup, and see if I can get a culture win. Again.

Oh, winning: I had 450 units, and was producing 5 -10 per turn---cashed them in to hasten culture building, happiness building... to no avail, except to keep my cost reasonable. (Don't get much trade income when you are at war with the only two civs left)
But I lost very few units. Perhaps 1 per turn, which is about .5%. No cities of mine were ever attacked, although they tried... sending boatload after boatload to their deaths. So winning is not the key to happiness. Losing might well be the key to even more unhappiness....:)
 

Dragon67

Warlord
Joined
Dec 9, 2001
Messages
253
Yes, it's seems to be harder to fight wars in the end of the game, when your kingdom it's large, and when it is few opponents left one the map. The first cities that turned into disorder was corrupted cities fare away from the capital, then next up was the others. It did not help much with luxuries eather, since I actually controlled all kinds of them except 2(ivory,incense). But I was really supprised about how much money I really lost in the last war. The trade can not explain it eather, since it could not had made it much better, because of my terrible income -300. I don't think the corruptions had anything to do with it eather, because the income from those cities is not large eather. Maybe the kingdom was to large +150 cities, and to many cities to fare away from my capital, I don't know. But after the war it turned into normal again, and I could adjust the tech slider up to 40%.
But I was hit hard, I lost many land-units in the first turns. I did not have any trouble with their navy, since I wiped them out in the first turn, they was also unable to attack my cities, because they had no transports left eather, and no IBCM's. But anyway, my cities fall into disorder twice. After the first turns, the income was -125, then after the next two turns, I was in deep trouble. :(
Thanks to my ally, India, the war ended just in time.
So I belive the only solutions it's to have more money, next time I run throw a "late" war.
 

Moulton

Monarch
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Messages
810
Location
Kentucky
I had 163 cities when I started the war. Income with tech at 60%, lux 0, was +214. That included 15o in trade. I ended the war at +14, tech 10%, lux 30. Income was enough to support 450 milatary budget. However, in communism... -400 per turn.
I think total income was like 3700, corruption, half that, 1900, maintenance 1300, military, 450, and a little plus.
The happiness generators, luxury items failed completely. only entertainers and luxury tax produced any happy faces. And tax, only if that city was producing enough--which the totally corrupt cities were not.
 

Dragon67

Warlord
Joined
Dec 9, 2001
Messages
253
Communism does not work fore me eather, since it do not fit my tactic. Almost all of my units is offence units , and I never garrison them eather(only in the early game, across my boarder). I am sure it work better if you are in a war where you not engage your own units, but instead garrison them to make happiness, or if you play with many defenders. I have played in monarcy with luck sometimes, but I only use it if I wish to rush build something in a captured city, and when it's done, I always swith over to democracy as fast as I can. In monarcy it also help to fortify some units in some cities to avoid disorder, but if you want to guard 160 cities, you also need a huge army, and once again it cost money...More than it's worth to keep them there I think.
Mayby the republic is better in war-time(modern times), but I have still not tried it.....
My econimical situation looked much as same as your, before the war. Science 60% happiness 10% income 50. In the end of the war Science 0% Happiness 0% :D
Your army was larger then mine, so I am sure that it must have cost more gold. I had had 270 land units and 75 naval units+30 ICBM's.
 
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