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Happiness - what was Firaxis smoking?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by lordsurya08, Oct 29, 2010.

  1. eviltypeguy

    eviltypeguy Warlord

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    I'd only agree with that if you could actually raze capital cities (and city states). As it is, it's a bit too "nice" for me.
     
  2. MadRat

    MadRat Cheese Raider

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    My biggest beefs with happiness are the fact that the AI doesn't play by the same rules for it and the fact that conquest makes it worse - very worse. Secondly, as others have pointed out razing allows you to avoid it.

    The best solutions
    1a) Allow faster/rush buy courthouse productions 5-10 turns of "civil disorder" is fine but at times 60-80??? *squeek* me.. I may as well raze
    OR
    1b) Reduce the global happiness hit for conquest and instead just make the city "non productive" until a court house is purchased or until x turns have passed (perhaps subject to social policies etc)

    2) REDUCE the AI cheat bonus for happiness - I know the cheats are in place to overcompensate for crappy AI design, but seeing Alexander with 60 happiness in 2500 BC is goatspamredunkulus!

    3) reduce the benefit of Razing cities (say add a diplo hit and or unhappiness hit). Genocide should not be a positive thing.

    Rat
     
  3. polypheus

    polypheus Prince

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    Better yet why not make use of, you know, something like the Civ4 local happiness mechanism where only newly conquered cities were unhappy but it did not generally affect happiness in the rest of your cities rather than this Shafer Rating/global "happiness" nonsense. :rolleyes: (This is directed at Shafer/Firaxis in case it wasn't clear)
     
  4. andrewlt

    andrewlt Prince

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    I find it funny how people can still sugarcoat this garbage. In Civ 4, there's an increasing gold penalty for adding additional cities that will eventually stifle your science. You need to grow those cities before expanding again. In Civ 5, there is no maintenance, only global happiness. Which means that it penalizes vertical rather than horizontal growth because happiness buildings are limited.

    Building a ton of cities with capped growth and coliseums is so much better than building fewer, larger cities. With trade routes and meritocracy, each of these small cities gives additional gold to your empire. With tons of cities, you can easily defend them because multiple cities can shoot any attacker at the same time. Not to mention you can just rush purchase anything because your are rolling in the gold.
     
  5. nes18

    nes18 Chieftain

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    Why is it when they show the people who smile the most the AI has like 30+:) and my people are allays at the bottom depressed:cry:
     
  6. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

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    no. ICS does not give you enough early military.

    all you do is give people cities to raze from which they get more gold to kill you faster.

    and you have to fight at a significant disadvantage because you spent all your culture going for meritocracy instead of the honor branch.
     
  7. RobAnybody

    RobAnybody King

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    You should try playing it sometime. The crossfire from close-knit cities will often be enough to wipe out enemy units, but even if that's not enough, the gold from all those circus tents you're working will allow you to buy a unit in at least one, more than likely two or three, vulnerable cities. That's suboptimal, sure, but if you need to buy units, you can, easily.
     
  8. Ribusprissin

    Ribusprissin Warlord

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    Gold from circus tents? Explain please.
     
  9. TPQ

    TPQ Cogito Ergo Civ

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    At the moment I only play on prince, but I really don't have an issue with happiness. It's just a matter of prioritising happiness and making sure you have a decent surplus before embarking on any major war of conquest.

    I aim to have around +30 happiness before I conquer an opposing Civ. I then prioritise enemy luxury resource cities and cities with wonders that help happiness as my primary targets, raze all cities that are of little to no worth and puppet everything else.

    Occasionally I'll annex one or two cities that are close to the front line, so I can rush-buy units to bolster my forces, but otherwise I let the puppets build money and happiness buildings on their own.

    Sometimes I have to cut a war short, if happiness dips too far, but usually it's only a matter of 20 to 40 turns before I can build/buy enough happiness buildings to get back on a good footing. I also use that time to turn out a few more units to reinforce my army for the next major assault.

    Unless a Civ is particularly weak, it does usually take me two or three wars to conquer an enemy completely, even if I'm more powerful, as the happiness factor plays such a big part in Civ5. This is of course in contrast to Civ4, where I used to wage non-stop war against an enemy until all his bases belonged to me.

    Overall, I'm quite happy with happiness. It forces me to play differently than I did in Civ4 and for me, it makes for a refreshing change to overcome this new challenge.
     
  10. logintime

    logintime Warlord

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    Trading posts look like big stretches of circus tents instead of, you know, actual trading posts.
     
  11. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    IMO, Happiness should have both a *local* & a *global* component.

    Local Happiness would be similar to what it was in Civ4-only more nuanced. If you're running surplus happiness (say +1 to +5), then each increment gets that city bonus production & culture. Running a happiness deficit (say -1 to -5), gets you a similar penalty to production & culture. This makes keeping each city more than just 0 net happiness quite important (instead of just trying to avoid the deficit, as occurred in Civ4).
    Of course, the other important reason to maintain surplus happiness at the local level would be because it feeds into to *global* happiness-which controls the production of Golden Ages. Of course, a Global Happiness surplus should have other global benefits-like boosted worker rates & improvements in military strength.

    Now local happiness should be influenced by *local* factors-city population, buildings & maybe some social policies that have a city-by-city effect. Global Happiness would be impacted by number of cities, luxuries, social policies & how you treat your neighbours.

    Just a thought :).

    Aussie.
     
  12. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Yep, I found maintenance a much better mechanic. It would work even *better* with the building maintenance system they now have. So building a city hundreds of tiles away from the capital might only have a small impact on your budget when you first build it-depending on how many cities you already have-but the moment you start plonking buildings inside it, that cost is going to rise very, very rapidly (because your building maintenance would be multiplied by the distance from your capital ;) ).

    Aussie.
     
  13. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Sorry, but in Civ4 it was extremely difficult to build more than 1 extra city *before* you'd properly upgraded your existing cities, because doing so sent your economy down the toilet. This was a massive improvement on the Civ1-3 corruption concept, that actually didn't curb ICS at all. As I recall, there was one Civfanatic/Apolytoner that had to *eat* the packet Civ4 came in because he declared that Civ4 wouldn't seriously curtail ICS, but was pleasantly surprised that it *did* (& this was a guy who'd been playing multiplayer Civ for *years*, & knew every exploit by heart-if anyone could have found a way to do ICS in Civ4, it would have been him!)

    Aussie.
     
  14. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Ha ha, that's hilarious. You know how many settlers I lost to wild animals &-later on-barbarians because I failed to send them out without an escort? I've not run into this problem in Civ5 yet. Your defense of the bad mechanics of Civ5 is bordering on fanboisness, it really is. I've yet to see any better argument from you than "Civ5 was great" & insulting those who disagree with you. You'll need something a little better to convince us than that!

    Aussie.
     
  15. Jharii

    Jharii King

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    Let's see. Insult someone, then point the finger at them for insulting others.

    There is some kind of logic there. Let me go ask my pot and kettle what they think.
     
  16. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Except that I don't use insults of Civ5 fans as my primary means of defending Civ4. I don't have a problem that he *likes* Civ5 over Civ4, I just grow tired of the way he insults people who dare to criticize his beloved game-even when they use some pretty compelling in-game arguments to do so. So, yes, there is a logic there-& its not based on hypocrisy!

    Aussie.
     
  17. Fool_U

    Fool_U Chieftain

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    Happiness is a very realistic aspect to the game. If you take over a city and implement your way of doing things there would be a great deal of unrest. If instead you give the city back over to the people and allow them do things the way they want there is much less unhappiness and you would reap the benifits of the city at the same time because you gave the city back to the people.

    So I think firaxis wasnt smoking anything and had a really good idea... But they need to fix unhappiness because as it stands it can just be ignored and can just go around rampaging...
     
  18. Warspite2

    Warspite2 Prince

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    Answer... allied city states and luxury resources. Pull up your diplomacy overview, see which ones have luxuries you don't have, ally them up if you have enough gold. You should also trade unused luxuries with other civs, many of my games, I have several extras just laying around.
     
  19. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Also, Jharii, look at his Sig-that's just a permanent *insult* to those who actually have very legitimate concerns about Civ5-because he just automatically tries to categorize them as "people going all emo every time a new version of Civ comes out".

    For the record, I've been playing Civ since 1991. Although Civ1 looks downright *silly* to my eyes now-the truth is that it was incredibly addictive & fun when it first came out (though I also wasn't a member of any fan forums back then-assuming any existed).

    I wasn't even *aware* of Civ2 until many, many months *after* it was released, but I enjoyed that game experience even *more* than I did Civ1-even though they didn't change a huge amount. I joined Apolyton & CivFanatics at that point-if only to get my hands on all the amazing historical & fantasy scenarios that came out on those sites. I also bought all the "expansions" (including ToT).

    I followed the development of Civ3 very, very closely on both the main forums-& I was *very* excited about the new direction of that game-culture; resources; more unique civilizations-all very very exciting. I actually *really* enjoyed playing Civ3, though I was a little disappointed by the lack of Social Engineering & good diplomacy/espionage mechanics (like they had in SMAC) & the retention of the Corruption system!

    Civ4 was an absolute *Revelation*-it built on all the *best* things that were in Civ3, whilst also adding things like Religion; SMAC-like Civics; Health (& associated health-related resources & buildings); & a much more rational AI diplomacy system (again, more like what they had in SMAC). Of course the expansions made it *even* better!

    Civ5 though, in spite of my initial excitement, has actually left me feeling *cold*-the first time any game in the franchise has left me feeling.....very disappointed (even more than when Civ3 came out). Sure it has some great changes-hexes, Unique Abilities, 1upt, City-States....but the new mechanics have been *very* poorly implemented, the AI is as dumb as a box of hammers & they removed-rather than improved upon-many of the things that made Civ4 such a great game out of the box!

    Now, why should *my* quite legitimate complaints be so easily dismissed as just the rantings of someone who fears change? When he can come up with a better defense for Civ5, I'll happily listen, but he hasn't done so yet!

    Aussie.
     
  20. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Yes, it should generate a great deal of unrest in the city you annex (&, under certain Social Policy settings, globally), but it shouldn't suddenly make your core cities unmanageable. Like I said above, have happiness work both locally & globally-that I believe will solve most of the current problems with this mechanic!

    Aussie.
     

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