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Happiness

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 15, 2018.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    G,

    You requested in the other thread if the median values have gotten out of whack. I believe they are there.

    I have spent the last 50 turns in my current Spain game with an unhappiness of 30-40, and that is with me doing nothing but building to combat it (and fighting rebels like every 3 turns). I'm building every needs reducer and yield pusher I can, and I am actually now more unhappy than when I was 50 turns ago.

    This is with 9 cities, standard speed on emperor. I have full progress and fealty.

    So I think it needs a look.

    Also, based on other comments made, I feel like the happiness game is currently falling into these buckets:

    1) Happiness is so good, I don't care. Happens with certain Tall Playstyles. You rack up a big block of positive happy, to the point where you don't care about unhappiness. You build what you want when you want, and happiness takes care of itself.

    2) Happiness is so bad, I don't care. Seems to happen to domination players. There happiness goes into the -50 or below...but they don't care. THey have a big army to kill the endless revolutionaries, and otherwise just keep warring away.

    3) The "sweet spot". Happiness tends to stay in the -10 to +10 range. Its always on your mind, but manageable. You just have to build a few key buildings every so often to stay good, but otherwise carry on.

    4) The "bad spot". This is the scenario I just described, which I think effects mostly peaceful wide. You have a wider civ, so happiness is a problem compared to a tall player. But you want to fight it, you want to make your people happy. So you build, build, build...you do everything you can in the name of fighting happiness...and its never enough. You just spiral down and deal with revolts every 3 turns or so.

    Personally... I hate hate hate number 4. It creates the most unfun games of this mod for me.


    So just throwing a few ideas out there:

    1) Remove the revolts. They are just an annoyance to the players in Number 2, Numbers 1 and 3 don't deal with them, and they just further cripple the number 4 players. I think they are an unfun mechanic that doesn't really serve a strong purpose, I say remove them.

    2) Add an happiness project, like we did farming. Perhaps an "entertainment" type. Provide those players who are trying to combat happiness and alternative way to deal with it. Its your "emergency button" for when other options aren't doing the job.
     
    vyyt, Gokudo01 and ElliotS like this.
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This is a cool idea. It would be a way for players struggling to actually come back, but it still has a significant cost
     
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Stating your happiness value is not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for deviation from the median. i.e. look at your cities, look at the metric for unhappiness, and then compare your outputs to the median demand. Find the biggest outliers, look at what you would need to reach net-zero unhappiness.

    My gut instinct is that my fix of the AI's evaluation has ramped up the median value such that the existing CBO median divisors are too high. You can tinker with this here:

    C:\Users\~\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Modular Elements\Happiness Mod

    Reduce BALANCE_HAPPINESS_TECH_BASE_MODIFIER from 1.42. Try something like 1.25 or even 1.15.

    Reduce BALANCE_HAPPINESS_TECH_BASE_MODIFIER from 65. Try something like 50 or even 40.

    Reduce BALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_BOREDOM/BALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_ILLITERACY/BALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_DISORDER/BALANCE_UNHAPPY_CITY_BASE_VALUE_POVERTY

    These are modifiers to your threshold. You'll see that poverty and disorder (crime) are already negative, meaning that they reduce your yield modifier at the base. Try dropping these two to -20 (or -30) and try decreasing the boredom/illiteracy ones to 15 or even 0. You can do this and it will be savegame compatible, just clear your cache before loading.

    Report back, I'm curious.
    G
     
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  4. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I'm looking forward to an update, Stalker0. That's basically how my games go, as well.. (Your name's not inspired by the Tarkovsky film, is it?)
     
  5. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    it didn't happen before, if i have built everything, I didn't have any happiness issue. Now with zero buildings avaible, I've got sometimes 2 unhappiness from boredom and 1 from illiteracy.
    If you stayed tall, tradition bonus will do the job. Else you will have a really hard time to deal it with it.
    Moreover to reduce illiteracy, you usually have to work specialist which generate a lot more unhappiness urbanisation which will add to the mix because you are trying to fight illiteracy and boredom.
    Once you are in the loop as stated in the op post, you feel like this until it spins out of control




    you mean BALANCE_HAPPINESS_BASE_CITY_COUNT_MULTIPLIER right ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Could it be that AI is caressly ignoring happiness so their high yields are increasing the median? If so, it may be that the player has better happiness in the same situation, but it does not matter because under 20 unhappiness everything is the same.
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    No- AI is diligent about managing happiness.
     
  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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  9. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Unless they are my puppets. Then they are just little unhappiness fountains. :(
     
    lunker likes this.
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Before you posted I started a new game on the newest patch with the same settings (hehe effectively rage quit when my unhappy hit 45). I wanted to see if my circumstances held under multiple games, so played another game of Spain (Standard, emperor, normal speed). Game went very similar to last one in terms of expansion and some aggression. The main difference was:

    1) I took Tu's advice and slowed down growth. I focused on villages over farm triangles, and even delayed aqueducts and even granaries in some of my newer cities.
    2) I didn't take mandirs this game, slowing my growth down a bit further.

    Overall my happiness has been better this game. With 11 cities I got to a 24 happy at one point around turn 185. However, I'm seeing the slide again. Now at Turn 216 I dropped as low as -26. I got back to -9 by turning off all of my specialists (not fun, but at least it worked). Now I want to see if the slide occurs again. This is a bit later than it happened last time, but I'm seeing a similar direction.

    If it slides again I'll change the settings you mentioned. Or if it clears I'll reload the older version with my other saved game and try that. So I'll give it a shot either way.
     
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  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So currently on Turn 246...and I'm doing ok. Still tend to dip between -10 and -20, but no longer feel like I'm in a spiral. However, I feel like I have to build constantly around happiness in order to maintain it. For example, just started building units as I got into a war and I see my happiness slipping again. In other words, I'm not playing civ right now....I'm playing a happiness simulator....and its pretty not fun.

    Some other notes. At first I wondered if progress was the issue, but comparing it to authority I actually would come out 2 happy ahead with progress. Fealty is my other pick. The -15% to boredom I have, and boredom is still my number 1 unhappy generator. I was curious is the bonus to defense from fealty effectively weakens crime, as crime has not been too bad in my games.


    Alright G, I've played it long enough straight up. So I'm going to try this setting adjustments you requested and see what happens.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Yeah, tinker with those values. I'm also considering throwing a few flat happiness on some buildings (i.e. the Circus) and giving the Circus Maximus a happiness bonus to other buildings (like the Arena) to help wide stay happiness-competitive. I think that's a big issue here as well: wide suffers wide because most of the anti-unhappiness methods scale best in larger cities.

    G
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I changed it to:

    1) 1.25
    2) 50
    3) Poverty to -30, Disorder to -20
    4) Illiteracy to 15, Boredom to 10.

    Right now after 10 turns of that I'm about 27 happy, and I turned back on some specialists. Now I've stopped building just for happiness next and I will see if my happiness holds up or starts to tank again.
     
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  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    My concern with said changes is that tall play will become trivial. We shall see.


    G
     
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  15. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I think it's almost impossible to fine tune the levels, for the reason you stated, and because what's easy for one guy is tough for another. Working from Deity on down probably is the best way to balance... except that you have to account for the inherent warp of Deity play leading to a Domination focus for most players (my guess based on past posts: just about everyone but CrazyG). Immortal may wind up being a better place to balance all-around.
     
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  16. MorphBer

    MorphBer Warlord

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    TBH tall (5-city traditon) is allready trivial in terms of happyness management in my experience
     
  17. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    I feel positive happiness is in a good place.

    I have had a few games where I experienced the "bad spot" described in OP and agree it's absolutely miserable.

    A while back I wanted to suggest a happiness buff for puppets but with the buffs to puppets I don't think that would be a good idea.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I usually attack my neighbors extremely early to claim land. I also much prefer to be next a weak civ during medieval over a powerful empire.

    I sometimes go big warmonger later on, sometimes now. I think its really dumb to already be thinking about win conditions in ancient era, like so many people seem to do. Just try to set up a decent economy, if I'm leading or competitive in all yields types I'll win somehow. In my experience, victory conditions are just a formality (unless you end up racing an equally strong civ, something like my science vs your tourism, which does happen occasionally)
     
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  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    It's not that easy to keep tall happy now. Only +1 happiness in national wonders is really noticeable, the extra unhappiness from specialists too. Now I really consider spending great musicians just for the happiness.

    Overall, wide has more sources of happiness, but it's true that those flat happiness bonuses (founding natural wonders, CS quests, concert tours (Great Musician), happiness monopoly, discovery voyages (Great Admiral)) are more useful to tall play. But there are many policies giving broad happiness: castles with fealty, and the like. Neushwanstein. You directly control so many luxuries. You can even purchase what luxuries you may miss (if you are not a jerk to everyone). Launching golden ages is reeally strong for wide. One single merchant gives 10 turns of WLTKD on ALL your cities (making those growing buildings even less necessary). A single internal land trade route can buff dozens of villages and towns.
    Going wide also makes your religion strong, fewer religious differences, more yields (= less unhappiness), or directly some extra happiness.

    Stadiums give +1 happiness, but this is so late...

    In my opinion, a civ that is extremely wide should not be able to work on many specialists. It already has the resources, the gold, the big army, production to guarantee City States, win world projects, and can even keep the pace in techs and policies, unlike vanilla.
    Tall can do, but they are really weak at religious game, not very good at warfare either. Struggle to keep many CS allies (for this usually grants some enemies). Going for a puppet empire hurts happiness too.

    The drop in happiness you are describing now (industrial era?), was already commented, and we suspected Public Schools, or the way Windmills leaded to Public Schools, with only Grocers in the lower side of the tech tree. Thing is, if you went that path, you had a military lead that you can use to your advantage, but it has a happiness and delevelopment cost.
     

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