HardSciFiMod

[Tholish]

Hello, this is the development thread for my mod "Solaria."
Solaria is about the branching out of "humanity" from Earth into the Solar System over the next few hundred years, even while dealing with the emergence of transhuman forms, colonial rebellion, and a technological singularity.

Or it could also be about colonists on a new planet in another solar system.

I am putting the mod together entirely by myself, using XML only, though I am including units, art, and some python and sdk downloaded almost exclusively from CivFanatics (a credits list is on my things to do list).

It is for version 1.61, not compatable with Warlords, which I don't even have yet.

I have broken the current version up into several uploads to get each in under the 5mb limit. This is how you download and install it:

First get this one, then unzip it in your mods folder.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Solaria0_7.zip

Then get this one and put it in Solaria0_7/Assets/

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaArt.zip

Then get these and put them in Solaria0_7/Assets/Art/

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaInterface.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaLeaderheads.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaStructures.zip

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaUnits.zip

Finally, get this and unzip it in
Solaria0_7/Assets/Art/Units/

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaMoreUnits.zip

To play the game as intended, since no script exists for making solar systems yet, use this World Builder Scenario. (Soon to be followed by real planet scenarios and interplanetary colony scenarios--the whole point of doing this: it's an appropriate tech tree etc for such things) Random maps will generate a technically playable world, but it won't have any space terrains.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/SolariaMap0_7.zip

 

[Tholish]

Originally In first Post:
I'm going to make a hard science fiction mod of the future.
This demonstrates audacity, since I am not skilled at XML, Python, C++, 3D graphics programs, or art.

However, I have a passing acquantance with Gimp, can read, and have completed a small mod that turns the Plains terrain to a featureless gray. One small step for man.

Here's the overall idea. You start the game on an undersized map of Earth
(60 wide, 40 high) at the end of the second world war. Civilizations are basically major language groupings: Anglos, Latins, Germanics, Slavics, Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, and Arabics. You have multiple closely spaced cities, but with one or two population each (each population represents ten million people in the city and surrounding provinces[tiles]). The land is remarkably productive, despite all being either Grassland looking "Terra" and Coast looking "Ocean." Some Hills such as the Himalayas and Andes are called "Terra Highlands", and the cities have buildings with names like IndustrialCity, ModernCity, and MedievalCity that do multiple things as though they were many buildings in one. The initial techs you can research seem familiar, but do different things. You can't build roads (superhighways) until you research Synthetic Materials. Your citizens are all labelled "MechanizedWorkers," and you also have a "HumanCitizenry," in each city, apparantly as a result of a default civic. You can't build farms at all, but can build food producing Oil Fields and Fission Plants on tiles with Oil or Uranium. Once you research Robotics you can build hammer productive AutofacTracts on flat ground. Units are familiar, though they are underpowered. Infantry with a combat power of 2, Tanks with 3 or 4, underpowered sea and air craft of the familiar breeds--battleships, stealth bombers, etc...

The mini map is wierd though. It reflects a world 840 tiles high and 60 wide, with x wrapping. You are playing in only one tiny portion of the map, but you have 11 additional units. Each unit is the only representative of its type that you know of. These unit types include Mercury and Venus (in regions 30 and 110 tiles "north" of the north pole) and Luna, Mars, Callisto, Ganymede, Europa, Io, Titan, Triton, and Pluto at increasing distances to the "south." However these unit types, named after planets, all do the same thing. They sit and do nothing.

Then, you start breaking into totally new technologies. One of those technologies is Moon Colonization. With this technology, an entirely new world, also sixty by forty, appears, down below the south pole. On this gray world is your MoonSettler, automatically upgraded from your Luna unit.

As the game progresses, you find that by building a LunarWorkbot you can build connect your city on Luna to a resource called Fuel, which enables you to build a Spaceport. This also makes the resource Fuel available to all the cities on Earth which had the ModernCity building (since both function as "airports").

As the game progresses, you discover Fusion Rockets, which open up Mars and Mercury, then Antimatter Rockets, which wake up the settlers on all the other planets.

In time, you encounter new civilizations, such as the Lunarians, who are a backward people having only a Luna unit (on the part of the map that can be settled). The ruler of these people is full of slogans about Lunar Independence, and freedom from the yoke of Terran Tyranny.

Every other planet colonized proves to have an independence movement.


Basically, the space between the habitable worlds is ignored. There are 12 worlds, all 60 by 30, with 30 squares of iced over Ocean in between. The only means of travel between worlds is Airlift.

I believe I can do most of this. I will be able to figure out how to use existing units that have been created, how to change the tech tree, etc...




However, the first thing I need is a 60 by 840 map size. I can reskin the terrain as needed, then edit up the map. I would appreciate it if someone could do a simple mod doing nothing else but creating a 60 by 840 map size.Never mind, I found something. A map size mod. Looks like it's all XML, unless you want to change the map generation. Though I don't really understand the XML I can compare, see what's different from the regular assets structure and change it to suit my needs.

However, I could use a gas cloud unit, though I will probably be able to make my own eventually.

Also attached is a Word document with more detail.

 

[woodelf]

Ambitious. You can never have too many sci-fi mods. Good luck man.

 

[Padmewan]

Gas cloud unit: Just use the .nif from Fallout, or sick city, or fog, or whatever you want from the FX directory. I've used fireworks myself as a unit

Very ambitious proposal -- would love to see where you go with this. You'll probably need to shrink Earth down a lot and give each civ only 1-2 cities, which can really work (remember the Age of Discovery mod from C3C? -- that's the best analogy to this).

I'm reshaping Roanoke to be more a colonial mod, but focusing on only one colony, so good luck with this; I hope we will be able to share lots of resources as we both move forward!

 

[Padmewan]

btw, what I like about this mod is that a lot of it can be done with minimal coding. The major coding parts are doable with little fuss, e.g. planting settlers on each planet (they need not be "sleepers") and later on rebellions, which are nicely covered by this mod.

 

[Wolfwood]

Just to nit-pick the terminology, there's a big debate about the difference between SF and sci-fi. Basically, sci-fi is seen as the soft approach (space opera etc.) while the hard stuff is called SF. Of course, not everyone agrees... ... and I think this mod is heading more towards the sci-fi area in any case...

But to the point, I'm very interested to see how this mod turns out...

 

[Tholish]

To Wolfwood: So, HardSciFi would be a sort of oxymoron? I'm thinking near future should be more the SF end, and far future will necessarily lean to the Sci Fi end. I will continue to post progress.

To Padmewon:
--Thank you very much for the rebellion mod link. That might just hit the spot for the colonies.
--I'm thinking of using Fallout as a Wind feature. Maybe the NanoCloud units will be totally invisible (lame) or maybe I'll download that NIF viewer thing and see what I can do, or maybe even get Maya. Apparantly the Blender plug in for Nif doesn't work.
--I loved the Colonization mod in Civ 3, it was my favorite one, best naval combat ever and I liked the treasure units too. It would be nice to make Earth as large as possible though. It's just an issue any scifi mod comes up on. Where's Earth in all this? Would Lunar settlers really have to research technology for adaptation while on the moon, funded only by the moon economy? You have to cut Terra out somehow. Look at Roanoke (distant star system, crash to get rid of pesky interstellar technology) and SOTM (Something Happens to Earth). Here I'm going with, hey, Earth is still there but growth is so rapid that colonies will soon rival it.

To WoodElf: Definitely ambitious considering my level of knowledge, but I'm learning as I did in Civ3. No, you can't have too many sci fi mods, and the greater, though more difficult, modability of Civ4 is the only way they can be done right, and worth it, but slower.

Update: The long skinny map doesn't work vertically. Max dimension is about 200 plots (without changing cell size, which I haven't experimented with). It works sideways, to about 1000 plots I think (it crashed on 1200 and not on 800), so I can use that and just do Y wrap. I'm playing around with how to do projections. Should I just have the north and south poles as these Mercator distortions at the top and bottom, now left and right, of each planet strip, or should I have two poles in the center like two fried eggs, with distortion of another kind? Will post illustration of this here later. Basically two separate segments of equator (the top and bottom of the y wrapped world and a parallel center line) and two separate horizontal segments of international dateline/northpole/greenwich meridian or greenwich meridian/southpole/idl, which parallel each other in between the equators. There are big fictional triangles along the edges which can be filled with ocean (on Terra) and maybe nobody will notice if you distort the landmasses so travel routes work as normal sort of. Other planets will be more difficult

So Earth will have lots of water, but all the land will be packed with cities. Ocean settlement will be one early tech, give Terran civs something to do while researching moon colonization.

 

[Padmewan]

To Wolfwood: So, HardSciFi would be a sort of oxymoron? I'm thinking near future should be more the SF end, and far future will necessarily lean to the Sci Fi end.

I thought the distinction was based on whether the fiction was scientifically-grounded or not. The "harder" the science, the "harder" the scifi. "Hard" scifi wouldn't have lightsabers, and probably not aliens either (except boring ones, like lichen).

--I'm thinking of using Fallout as a Wind feature. Maybe the NanoCloud units will be totally invisible (lame) or maybe I'll download that NIF viewer thing and see what I can do, or maybe even get Maya. Apparantly the Blender plug in for Nif doesn't work.

Tool around in the SFX folder and see what you can find. There are some neat ones that could work for you, like "Fog." Some of them, unfortunately, are "play once" (e.g. the wind one).

--I loved the Colonization mod in Civ 3, it was my favorite one, best naval combat ever and I liked the treasure units too. It would be nice to make Earth as large as possible though. It's just an issue any scifi mod comes up on. Where's Earth in all this? Would Lunar settlers really have to research technology for adaptation while on the moon, funded only by the moon economy? You have to cut Terra out somehow. Look at Roanoke (distant star system, crash to get rid of pesky interstellar technology) and SOTM (Something Happens to Earth). Here I'm going with, hey, Earth is still there but growth is so rapid that colonies will soon rival it.

IMHO, I would suggest keeping Earth physically smaller but highly developed. You're right that Earth would provide most of the up-front power, research, etc., but making Earth too big would put too much of the action there when you really want people to focus on the colonization aspects. One easy mechanism for this: make Earth 100% developed so there's no room to grow and not much to "do." Copy ideas from the C3C Age of Discovery mod, too -- there were some good Wonders and such. I remember playing one game as France and trying to conquer Europe, but that backfired and left me in the dust -- I think you probably want similar incentives in this mod. (Conceptually AoD was one of my favorite mods in showing a lot of creativity, but I didn't find it that fun because the AI was too dumb).

I have no idea what the storyline is in SotM, but one of the problems I had with SMAC was precisely this lack of relationship between the colony and Earth (in it, I guess it was presumed that Earth was wiped out in a nuclear war). Roanoke is going to have colonial-motherplanet relations, but abstracted to such things as wonders/buildings and diplomacy with the mothernation (either through a patsy civ or something like that, esp. if we can hack the SDK to allow diplomacy with a "dead" civ). Of course, Roanoke is like 47 LY away from Earth, so colonial relations is hard, to say the least...

So Earth will have lots of water, but all the land will be packed with cities. Ocean settlement will be one early tech, give Terran civs something to do while researching moon colonization.

Why not start with the race to moon colonization off the bat? That's what made the AoD mod so exciting, and if that's where you want to be, why waste time on other stuff? Some civ gets a Wonder that gives an extra boost to get to the Moon (like Portugal in AoD) and you're off! Like I said before, forget Earth! The future is in the stars!

Some more thoughts on the map: IMHO it's OK to be a little abstract with it if it helps keep the game focused. One idea I had when I first read this thread was to have actual space "sea lanes" between Earth and the moon / planets. There could be one per planet, with movement in each lane progressively slower without new tech (which would simulate the gravity boost you'd get by hitting the moon before going off to Mars, for example). E.g.:

:::::::::::::::::
..........:::::::
EEEEE.mmmm:MMMMM:
EEEEE.mmmm:MMMMM:
..........:::::::
:::::::::::::::::

You could imagine "blockading" the Moon with a map like this.

Final point for now: It will be important for game balance and competitiveness that each colony gives some boost to the colonizer but doesn't become a "runaway" game. If a moon resource is need to get to Mars, and a Mars resource to get to Jupiter, "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer." It should be possible for a late bloomer to skip the Moon and go straight to Mars; in fact, it might be a viable strategy. Perhaps the Moon ends up being a liability in the long run (big drain on resources, or rebellion). Otherwise, the game will be decided in the first 20 turns and the rest be tedium...

 

[Tholish]

Great advice about balance. And there's a whole lot more to it than you mentioned. It's an art and science, but it is done in the tweaking phase, when you've done the mod and then you playtest and tweak playtest and tweak. I guess my philosophy is make it a good simulation (of whatever you are trying to simulate well, as with map projections outside the focus it will be distorted, which slanting is what makes it Art) and then tweak the simulation to make it a fun game.

As for sea lanes, I haven't really decided how to do space. I may use the "flying" units mod that has units that can go on both land and sea. However I HAVE decided to do the planets as vertical bands with Y wrap separated by less passable space terrain.

Before tweaking a bunch of XML to make the techs units buildings etc... for my story, first I thought I'd see what was possible with the terrain. When I modded in civ 3 I started with a comprehensive tech tree. I wrote a list of modifications that could be made, you know things a tech can give you, flags that can be toggled. Took two columns and drew lines to match functions to fictional techs. Then I maybe changed techs to match possibilities. Back and forth, kind of like tech trading. But in civ 4 much more is possible , or at least concievable, so its impossible to do it that way. So what I'm doing is starting at the terrain angle, since this is a planet taming mod. So I did a map, decided what my terrains would be, how they would look, right, and tried to get a feel for it by doing a map. Well, I found that I worked on this map and then was stuck with the players in the scenario. Later changes do not affect the scenario. I can't change the mod I did the scenario in and then go into the changed mod and get into the scenario and expect the mod changes to affect it. Unless I can figure out how to copy the whole map (looking at the BMP converter, but it may be easier to just redraw the map, despite the horrendous waits for 5 by 5 plot batches to convert), I will be doing the full sized scenario part again, but LAST, rather than first, and it will be as much drudgery as this map was. Nevertheless, this gives you the picture.

Until then I will make a miniature version that I can use to play with terrain types and effects. For features I will just use a few, which I never got around to painting into the attached map.

Hills will be "Rough Terrain" representing both mountains on earth and craters on planets.

Flood plain will be "Pulverized Minerals" ie both Regolith AND Asteroids. I will have to XML it to be harvestable like forest. I am using it because I don't seem to be able to change the look of forest (I just deleted the tree object in blender with nif converter and had an empty nif file, but it got red globs instead of an invisible terrain), and I find I can just WB flood plain in and it will just be invisible, unless its beside a river, but will affect plot production and improvement capabilities until harvested. Hopefully I can add an object to the relevant flood plain NIF, a tiny dot or something so the difference will be visible.

Ice will be "Volatiles" ie ice rich in Carbon and Nitrogen compounds, as opposed to a pure water ice. I will XML it to be harvestable like forest, but have a different set of improvements and different productivity effects.
It looks quite nice as is, you can WB it onto any terrain. Also functions as regular comets, though there will be a comet resource as well.

Forest will be used only on Earth, to represent LESS productive regions, and will not be easily altered.

Jungle might be introduced as an effect of terraforming, genetically modified plants (GM Forest) that can grow on Mars and such late in the game.

The fallout Nif, renamed Wind, which you see in the attached WB on Venus and Titan, will not be the killer it is in regular civ. It will simply represent atmosphere which allows improvements which use atmosphere and disallows improvements that require vacuum. Ie, allows wind turbines and air polymerizers and disallows solar smelters. Not applicable to earth, but applicable to Venus and Titan.
With Comet resource it will be harvestable. I'd like to have a Comet unit that can only be made in cities with Comets in the fat x, harvests one tile of Wind and is destroyed in the process. Alternatively, a comet unit can turn one tile of Lava that doesn't have wind on it into rock, or can PUT Wind on rock. With Sunlight Control (improvement?) wind with rock can have GM Forest planted on it or even Coast, ie Ocean. When harvested GM Forest becomes grassland maybe.

Rock terrain (plains on the WB) which is the only texture different from standard, which I got from SOTM instead of using mine which was uglier, allows solar power plants and mines.

Tundra will become Rich Ice terrain (as opposed to the Volatiles feature, so thick and deep it is never harvested out). Found all over Titan and in select places elsewhere.

Desert will be Lava terrain, which is very inhospitable, found on Venus and parts of Io (though I didn't put it into the WB, which other than Earth only shows the main blocks).

 

[Tholish]

The clamour is overwhelming. You’ll rue the day, all of you.

Update. I spent some time learning the XML structure. The terrain and features are pretty final. The planets are vertical bands of normal land type terrains. They wrap in Y, and the solar system is represented by a series of these bands arrayed from left to right, separated by space. Coast, renamed Ocean, is a land terrain, but land type units are not allowed to travel on it. Ocean, renamed Space, is a land terrain, which runs in vertical bands between planets. The bands will have labels stating what they are, ie Solar Orbits between Mercury and Venus, Solar Orbits between Venus and Earth, Earth Orbits between Terra and Luna, Solar Orbits between the Earth/Moon system and Mars, the Asteroid belt (hills in ocean), Jovian orbits, etc…LowOrbit terrain cannot be settled on or improved. Space terrain can be settled on, but it is mostly unproductive, and not improvable until late in the game and early era workers cannot travel there (so no space roads).

The sizes of the bands will be carefully set so that the movement of spacecraft is not affected by how close they are to a pole, which is a jarring gameism. Spacecraft ( land units without Space terrain blocked) are invisible and have moves of 18. Planets are 16 plots wide and 32 plots high, so in one turn a spacecraft can go anywhere on the planet and can go from orbit on one side to orbit on the other. Interplaneteray spaces are 12 plots wide, with 3 plots of Low orbit feature sandwiching 6 plots of deep space. But movement through space is at half rate, so no spacecraft can start a turn on one planet and end it on another (except in the Jovians, which are laced with invisible railroads between planets).

Flood plains has become Regolith and can indeed be harvested like Forest, but can be found anywhere, though it is invisible. The ice feature has become, well, Ice, which looks great on land, and it can be found anywhere and harvested just like Regolith.

In the past I have experimented with mods in which good planets are separated by wastelands, but the AI refuses to settle them, insisting on going standard distances to settle, no matter how bad the land or how good the land is a little farther on. Even if you give them a huge move and make sure they have defender escorts, the settlers with 20 moves will move 5 squares and settle in Jungle Hills instead of 20 to settle on Grassland with Rivers. Resources can entice them somewhat, and I have experimented with this in civ 4, and apparently they WILL travel long distances to settle on land vastly superior to the intervening terrain and loaded with resources, especially of you make sure they see the situation. I gave them scouts in the promised land, but they didn’t settle it until they had sent warriors out to make sure it was wasteland in between.

Anyway, now I have a great new idea to bring the whole thing together. Actually, I came up with this when making both Coast and Ocean land terrains. Water type units are now made land units, but can only travel on coast. Regular land units cannot travel in space, but space type land units can. Starting unsuited land units cannot travel on non Terra terrains, but later spacesuited ones and robots can.

What happened was that the random map that got generated was a lovely all land world, like a planet half terraformed. This made me think what would be good would be to have the same mod work for both a solar system scenario and an interstellar colony mod. After you play the scenario, you can play on planets of other stars using the same mod, but picking your starting era. How does this work?

Interstellar colony mods solve the problem of Earth. Why are we handful of barely surviving pioneers researching how to distill water from the soil if we are in touch with NASA by radio and can let their vast research establishment do it for us? Why does colony A, from Papua New Guinea, research faster than colony B, from the USA, just because colony A has 20000 people and a gold deposit while colony B just has 10000 people and no special resources.

Interstellar colony mods solve this problem, but gain a new one. Earth is out of the picture since it is so far away. The problem with interstellar colony mods, is that any civilization that can send out interstellar colonists would not need to research how to distill water from the soil, or make cars, or guns, or robots. It would already be incredibly advanced, right? Wouldn’t it?

Not necessarily. In the solar system scenario of my mod, victory will consist exclusively of accumulating a set number of victory points. Victory points are earned by sending out starships. But you don’t send out ONE starship, its not just one race. Its about how MANY starships you send out over the whole game. Early starships, based on primitive technology, accumulate fewer points per turn, but since they start early they can be important. Later starships, based on advanced technology, accumulate many points per turn, but only near the end of the game.

The game starts on Earth in 1943. I have been advised against this, and I take it under advisement. The modern era will go quick not be a burden.

The next era is the Robot Era. With the technology of Cyberprobe and Cloning Kit, you can send out your first Interstellar colony, which will be a robot arriving in thousands of years on a distant star and cloning a starting human population. Contemporary techs include superconductors, VR, cyborgs, robots, lasers, and brain implants. Interstellar colonists may even have to relearn these, and will then run into the rest of the tech tree. This kind of colony is represented in the post scenario games you will play with the mod by a custom game starting in era 2, yet using the same mod as the solar system mod. That’s the beauty of it.

The next era is the Fusion Era. With the technology of Fusion Rockets and Cryogenics, you can send out colonists who will arrive in mere hundreds of years, as full grown adults. Contemporary technologies include Fusion, AI, Microbots, Plasteel, Cryogenics, Mutation, and Androids. Again, a colony of this era may start with some or none of these major technologies and the applications dependent on them.

The next era is the Antimatter Era. While not cheap, Antimatter is plentiful enough to use for high priority items like Starships and Weapons systems. With this technology, you can send out colonists who will arrive at a distant star in just a few dozen years, seeming like less with relativistic travel, and unimportant with extended longevity. They will remain conscious for the trip, and arrive with the technology of their era. Techs include Nanobots, Forcefields, Antimatter, Duralloy, Quantum Computers, and Immortality. However, the powerful starships of this era are very expensive.

The next era is the Singularity Era. During this era microsingularities can be generated to produce unlimited energy, which powers wonders like antigravity, teleportation, transmutation, and warp drive and leads to the even more powerful tapping of Vacuum Energy. Vacuum Energy makes possible an Omega Point (spaceship) victory, but really this should not happen.

Naturally, “starships” are buildings and wonders.

An additional era may house miscellaneous application techs so that advanced people still have to learn iron working the old fashioned way if the matter converter is on the fritz. I don’t know if the AI will use this right, though.

So, now I’ve been doing this for two days straight. I wasted inordinate time sort of learning how to use Blender, which does me no good, at least on terrain features, painting a map that I lost use of, and copying all the art.fpk files into one structure instead of 4 (which I might yet use). I spent some good time doing xml tweaks and testing them, and wrapped up with this background piece. Progress occurs. This will happen.

 

[The Great Apple]

The clamour is overwhelming. You’ll rue the day, all of you.

To be honest I'm a bit too lazy to read through all the text at the moment. From what I gather it seems to be quite a cool idea.

 

[Tholish]

HA. More text.

Todays update. Looked at other mods, available units, saw the inertia loss discussion on SOTM thread, despite the nice art. Checked out the less than 40 percent incomplete Star Wars mod. Marvelled at the wonderfull Roanoke mod. Chortled in glee at the Forest mod. Then did this.

I will only need unit animations of the following basic descriptions:
Units
Missile Spaceship—one of the star wars fighters
Variants by metal armor, plasteel armor, duralloy armor and forcefield armor
Variants by chemical rockets, fusion rockets, antimatter rockets, singularity rockets,or warp drive
Variants by chemical munitions, antimatter munitions, or singularity munitions
For a total of 60 variant combinations, using skins (some of them are strange though: if you have a singularity drive, why would you use chemical munitions and metal armor?)
Beam Spaceship—one of the star wars fighters
Variants by metal armor, plasteel armor, duralloy armor and forcefield armor
Variants by chemical rockets, fusion rockets, antimatter rockets, singularity rockets,
or warp drive
Variants by Laser Beams, Plasma Beams, Antimatter Beams or Singularity Beams
For a total of 80 variant combinations, using skins
Robot Pioneer—the Agribot also used by Roanoke
Basically two variants: an expensive space settler (doesn’t look like a spaceship but it will never travel without an escort) and a cheap slow planet bound settler/worker that can be produced with just food. Cannot build cottages. Requires only robot tech.
Satellite—already got it
Just a craft you can make with a spacecraft like move but no interplanetary capability
Human Pioneer—the civilian engineer also used by Roanoke
Can build colonies (towns). Costs only hammers, requires only spacesuit tech.
Missile Tank—I think there’s one in this stuff I’ve downloaded
Variants by power: chemical, battery, superloop, fusion, antimatter, or singularity.
Variants by armor: metal, plasteel, duralloy, or forcefield. Variants by munitions: chemical, antimatter, or singularity. 60 variants.
Gun Tank—standard tank.
Variants by power: chemical, battery, or superloop.
Variants by armor: metal, plasteel, or duralloy. 9 variants.
Beam Tank—I think there’s one in this stuff I’ve downloaded
Variants by power source: superloop, fusion, antimatter, or singularity
Variants by armor: metal, plasteel, duralloy, or forcefield. 16 variants.
Bulldozer—the combat engineer also used by Roanoke
Highly efficient worker, superior to earlier ones. Can be produced by shields only, and twice as many as human worker, but works three times as fast and moves twice as fast and can also build cottages. Requires developerbot tech.
Swarm—I’ll use some kind of Effect
Minibots, Microbots and Nanobots. These are basically workers, but increasingly better. They move only one. The minibot costs three times as much as the bulldozer but only works twice as fast. The Microbot costs twice as much and works three times as fast. The Nanobots cost the same and work four times as fast, plus they have combat capability. A variant of nanobots can also settle.
Meteor—I’ll use an Effect
This is the primitive barbarian unit, always around. It has a high move and blitz but only one hit point.
Gun Infantry—one of the infantry units from sotm
Earthbound infantry with chemical guns that only shoot in atmosphere and spacesuited ones with some kind of binary explosive guns. Additional variants based on armor: platseel, duralloy, or force field..
Beam Infantry—there has to be one.
All are spacesuited. Variants by armor: none, plasteel, duralloy or force field.
Variants by beam: superloop laser, antimatter beam, or singularity beam. 12 variants.
Missile Infantry—the rocket infantry
Variants by armor: none, plasteel, duralloy of forcefield. Variants by misile type: chemical, antimatter, or singularity muntions. 12 variants.
Robot Infantry—I downloaded one.
Variants by armor: none, plasteel, duralloy, or force field.
Mutant Infantry—I downloaded one. Actually there are probably more, that could inspire variants.
Variants by armor: none, plasteel, duralloy or force field.


Spacecraft cannot capture cities, but overpower all other units outside them. Infantry and swarms are good at taking and defending cities. Tanks are strong against other ground units. Beams are good against swarms. Missiles are good against spacecraft.

Improvements and routes:
Resort: costs one food, produces two gold, never grows, only allowed on special resources.
Colony: produces one gold, grows as town.
Refinery: costs one food, produces one gold and three hammers, allowed only on special resources, volatiles, and rich ice.
Pipeline: road
Frictionless Transportation Infrastructure (FTI): railroad
Antimatter Generator: costs five food and generates ten hammers.
Mine: produces one gold, three hammers, allowed only on special resources.
Fuser: produces five food, one hammer, only allowed on special resources.
Solar Plant: produces three food, allowed only on rock and regolith
Soil Furnace: produces one shield, allowed only on regolith.
Rock Smelter: consumes two food and generates three hammers. Allowed only on rock and regolith. Requires higher tech than soil furnace
FissionPlant: produces four food, only allowed on special resources
Windmill: produces two food. Allowed only on rich ice and special resources.
Factory: allowed only on terra. Produces two gold and three shields.
Farm: allowed only on terra Produces two gold and three food.
Mass Driver: allowed only on rock and ice Consumes 1 food and produces 1 gold

More worker actions:
Stripmine: chops regolith into rock or volatiles into ice
Greenhouse: allowed only on regolilth. Converts regolith to forest.
Pulverize: turns rock to regolith
Sunshield: turns lava to rock requires high tech
Pipeline: build road

Religions and Their Buildings
Monastery, Temple, Cathedral
Mutant: Mutation Clinic, IQ Clinic , Immortality Clinic
Robot Codery , AI , Quantum Computer
Human School , Bar , Park
Virtual BrainJammer , VR Node , Upload Mainframe
Swarm Purifier , Coordinator , Harmonizer
Android Upgrade Lab , Parts Lab , Brain Lab
Cyborg Hospital , Cryo Mausoleum , Cloning Clinic

(what makes em, what makes em happy, what makes em REAL happy)

Building Equivalents
Coal Plant—Nanovat
Hydroplant—Nanolab
Nukeplant—Replicator
Forge—Minibot mill
Factory—Microbot mill
(tiny robots very efficiently produce great projects but often go awry, eat the normal size robots, replicate wrong, get in your nose, and so forth)

Granary—Repair Shop
Recycling Center—Purifier
Aqueduct—Battery Factory
Grocer—Polymerizer
Supermarket—Parts Mill
Hospital—Prototyper
(most people are actually robots, so what makes them healthy is maintenance and upgrades)

Laboratory--Supercollider
Library—ISP
Observatory—Space Telescope (doubles value of starships) also
University—Supernet (superconducting supercomputer network)
Academy—Brainsat (a vast mutant brain in zero gravity, enlargement halted only when its own gravity hinders)

Colloseum—Game Industry
Obelisk—Transmitter
Theater—Virtuality
Broadcast Tower—VirusAI

Walls—plasteel dome
Bombshelter—duralloy reinforced dome
Castle—forcefield

Airport—spaceport
Barracks—Military Base

Market—Food Synthesizer
Bank—(consumer goods) Fabricator

Drydock: longevity antimatter starship
Lighthouse: cyberclone starship
Harbor: stasis fusion starship
Bunker: warpship

Hopefully these starships can be set up to self destruct once built so they can be built over and over for score points each time

Also some civics

Communications: Messenger, Wire(telephone), Transmission(radio), VR (common virtuality), Telepathy (volitional implant to implant), Unity (all members of the society are one, communications irrelevant)
Observation: Officials, Spies, Bugs, Scans, Mental
Control: Love (loyalty), Pressure (peer and economic pressure), Law (police and courts), Force (martial law), Direct (puppet control)
Monitoring: Human, Computer (sub ai recognition software), AI, Hive (group mind awareness), Oracle (Precognition)
Decisions: Oligarchy (a small elite preserves its privilege), Meritocracy (the state is ruled by those who have served it well), Democracy (one man one vote becomes problematic--do you count AIs or androids or heightened iq dogs?) Limited Suffrage (democracy is practiced among members of a large privileged category, for example only robots can vote, and Weighted Suffrage (control goes to those most able to play the system)

 

[woodelf]

Once I get back to working after my 4 day weekend I'll read all of this. You are verbose.

 

[Padmewan]

I do, actually, read all the text, but what I'm looking for is basic gameplay underlying all the "game flavor." I haven't yet played FFH2, but one thing I found from FFH1 is that too many details, options, etc. can, at least for me, detract from the game experience. That is, the "fiddly bits."

I see some interesting original ideas here that I'd love to hear more about. For example, the idea that your interstellar ships arrive at their destination with the technology they bring with them. I could see a potential core mechanic / tension build around how to keep an interstellar empire together when communications can't keep up. Could the game arc essentially follow a "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" trajectory?

Anyway, I guess my general question is, what is the core game dynamic (the conflict, the struggle) of this mod? What parts of the core Civ4 engine are you keeping, which are you throwing away or tweaking, and what entirely new mechanics are you adding?

 

[Tholish]

I guess you mean the story, or the theme? Build an empire and then use it to achieve a victory condition. I don't think you can get too far from that or the AI will be lost. What I plan to do differently from the standard game dynamic is to have only one victory condition, which will be a set score you have to achieve and then the game is over. Building "starship" buildings gets you so many score points compared to anything else that it dwarfs the rest. You develop your economy so you can build starships, and you fight so you can expand or defend your economy so you can build starships and you keep your society healthy and happy and smart so you can build starships. You research tech because it helps you do these other things and build starships.

The dynamic between developed but finite Earth and the vast worlds of the solar system will be something I build by serendipity.

Here's some recent developments. I'm currently merging the mods that will be basic background. I've thrown together the Forestry Mod, the Icebreaker Mod, the Revolution Mod, the R&R (retreat) mod, and the Tech Conquest mod. My next step, after testing this fusion with a quick world builder showcase, is to work in the unit animations that I will be using.

I have thought about it and all those variants sound like a pain in the neck.
I may reduce all that a lot. Like one variant per era of each type.

Also, I've been seriously considering doing the whole solar system at once. It must be done, and of course I will do it, but at first the main dynamic will be between each colony and Earth. Colonies will not interact with each other much at first. To test I may start with one or more simpler scenarios, each with only two "planet bands" separated by space. One planet will be Earth and the other will be the planet being focused on. (I drew the wierd polar projection I referred to way back on paper but it's hard to fit into a tiny band, but may work in this context). In fact, how about a dual scenario(Earth and Luna) a tiny scenario (Earth, Luna, and Mars) a small scenario (Mercury, Earth, Luna, Mars, and Titan) a standard scenario (Earth, Luna, Mars, Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto) a large scenario (Mercury, Earth, Luna, Mars, the Jovians, and Titan) and a huge scenario (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Luna, Mars, the Jovians, Titan, Triton, and Pluto)?

I think you misunderstood about taking the tech with them. I don't think I could pull something like that off at this stage. I'm just cutting and pasting stuff together and making a fancifull world with its own tech tree, units, buildings etc as described above, then painting a scenario map. What I meant was that if I design the mod right, other game start conditions (or even better, smart map starts) would be play, using the same mod that started out as support for a solar system scenario, as various scenarios of isolated interstellar colonies. Play the game the first time using the solar system scenario, then instead of using the scenario just start a random map and intead of a solar system map with carefully placed units and resources, you will get a funky looking alien planet map, and depending on what tech level you started in USING THE SAME MOD you would get a fully satisfying game similar to regular civ4, except in a science fictional setting for which the original solar system mod was a background.

Once I actually complete this I might start doing useful mod components that others can use. I like the way the ones I am welding together were kept simple and to the point of just one functionality so I could easily put them together. Other mods that have been posted are also great example of how to do specific things, and only those things, without confusion.

The next step is to mess with the tech tree. Why? Because when I add other stuff, I will have to associate it with a tech. Recieved wisdom is to do tech trees one era at a time, but I believe I will do double work and start out with a skeleton tech tree covering the entire future, using only major pivotal techs. This will give me something to have as a prerequisite for buildings and units as I add them. Later, I will add more techs fanning out from the main nodes, and this will mean going back and changing things, but it is worth it because it helps me think, like focusing in on more detail. A comparison might be stating out just with one tech Iron Working allowing all swordsman, forge, and jungle cutting then going back and adding in specific "application" techs following the root Iron working tech (which only makes the resource visible) that you have to research before you get the specific function.

It will put me somewhere quick where I have a playtestable game that I can then improve.

 

[Padmewan]

no, not so much the theme as the basic mechanic. In a basic Civ game, it's been occupy land, develop land/infrastructure, project power, rinse/repeat. No mod so far has fiddled with that core concept. But then there are twists, like "Occupy land by developing culture" or "Use excess population to generate GPPs" or whatever.

Is there some different strategies for building starships that are equally viable but play very differently? E.g. one is "build it yourself," another is "buy it from someone else," another is "capture it by force or trickery"... etc.?

 

[Tholish]

The strategy options for empire development, and thus starship building indirectly, boil down to the religions. Posthuman paths with very different consequences.

But I fear options like that are interesting for human players. Since the AI can't handle
such things, the game works only because it has been carefully balanced. The main enjoyment in playing against the AI isn't in making tough decisions as it is in
1. developing an algorithm for play, ie learning the strategies the rules call for
(or playing your strengths to your opponents weakneses, the heart of strategy, by learning how to win by doing what humans can do and the AI can't) and always improving it
2. applying that algorithm in ever unique situations, ie new maps and civs and

All you can really do is make a mod that is
1. fun to learn, and relearn on higher levels
2. ai friendly
3. new on map after map for a long while

I accept that the AI will simply optimize in simplistic ways, but I hope to devise it to look like its making decisions.

Buying starships. See I'm still thinking limitations. Got to stretch. Let me think. Well, I'll do the simple thing first and then see how I can stretch from there. Thank's for getting me thinking.

As for strategy flowchart, I'm planning to just make the thing and playtest it and see where it wants to go, there will be pleasant and unpleasant surprises. How will the AI handle my different improvements? How will the new AI handle multiple worker types? How will the AI handle the kinds of paper scissors rock unit upgrade results I plan to put in? Will the AI actually build Score only buildings? Will all the AIs have the same strategy (obviously not, they have different traits and such) yawn?

One thing is that the religions, now body types, will lead to radically different arrays of unique buildings and unique units. Also I kind of would like something similar to the preferred government in civ3, don't know how. What I have in mind is that for example, robots and humans are at odds with each other, androids are an attempt at appeasement of the Pure Human types by a faction of robots. Humans prefer androids to robots. Same with civics.

Too many directions doesn't worry me. I'll start out all directions and then trim the losers, many just by neglect.

 

[Tholish]

Update: I've put together the Revolution and Retreat mods and the Icebreaker and Forest Planting mods, which will be part of my mod, so why not put them together for a regular civ mod, and then mod that blend.

Then I put in the unit animations I will be using. These are only one unit each right now, but later the same animations will be used over and over. And I reskinned them creatively. The spy gloss works great as the 128 for the navy seal. Also the destroyer skin for the tie defender.

Then I put in my civics and my religions. The religions, actually lifeform choices, will be a major focus. They will not be dittos of each other as in regular civ, but really different strategic paths, with radically different buildings units etc... Since there are diplomatic advantages to lifeform choice, this means that even if I don't balance the lifeforms perfectly the decision of which to choose will not be a slam dunk, a "the way the game is played." The civics I may tweak some more. I may compact the surveillance so there's not two civicoptions for surveillance (one for method of data collection and one for method of data analysis) but rather one blending them. This will make room for something economics related.

Anyway, I added the basic 26 or so future techs, as future techs since messing with eras has led me to disaster.

Now I am taking out all references to earlier techs so that I can cut them out, which means taking out units I won't be using anyway, which I have completed. I have also removed all references in buildings. Next step is to translate the remaining buildings (those not obsolete before the modern era) into first drafts of the future buildings.

Yet now I am faced with a design choice. I want to start out with the regular traditional buildings to show how earth is way ahead of the colonies. They have libraries and universities and temples and cathedrals already built. Should I leave these in, only make them outrageously expensive compared to futuristic quasi equivalents or compact them into group packages or maybe just cut them out entirely. For example, should I replace Library with ISP or keep both buildings in. A really creative choice here is essential to success, I feel, and I would like some feedback.

 

[woodelf]

I think you need to keep some of the older buildings in for sure. Your example of the library is a perfect example. I go to the Public Library twice a week and have an ISP. In the future I hope these buildings are still around.

 

[Tholish]

Yes, all standard buildings NOT obsolete by the modern age will be in, but they will require the religion Humanism. While sapient robots may be able to use a conventional library, they would never build a knowledge repository out of bound paper unless humans were at least a portion of the population. All other buildings will have religion or state religion prerequisites.

For an actually playable (as opposed to simply loadable) Version 0.1 (now at 0.05) there will just be the translated buildings mentioned up above, but from 0.1 to 1.0 I'll put in actual originality.

Other than the couple of mods I blended in that use python or sdk, a couple of units and buildings and a terrain texture or two, the mod will be entirely XML work. Buttons and such will be my usual technique that I used in Civ 3: cut and pasted out of screenshots, or else stolen from Civ3 and misapplied.

I now have eliminated all trace of premodern techs, units, and buildings and put in my basic stuff. The root units, translated buildings, civics, and religions. None with art, civilopedia, or even thorough tweaking. They cost one hammer and have no prerequisites or effects. The original plan of techs is in there all in the future era. However, that's getting revamped. Next step is to revamp techs (adding much more detail, including planet specific stuff and a complex AI/robobody/swarm intellect part of the tech tree), bonuses (currently merely de-premodenized) improvements, and promotions. That will get me to 0.09. Then retweak everything to make it playable. Versions 0.1 will include no buttons or civilopedia or balancing because 0.1 to 0.9 will involve lots of playing around with stuff and why put in carpet before you roof. 0.1 to 0.9 will be where I rebalance tweak. 0.9 will be the final design just lacking civilopedia and art. 1.0 will have those as well.

As for units, most of the variants mentioned up above will be done using Promotions. What was I thinking. Most of these will require an unavailable tech, so they only come from a building that maybe requires a religion. Many resources will also come from buildings.