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"Harvest Resource vs Remove Feature" or "Instant Boost vs Long-Term Benefit"

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Wit, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. Wit

    Wit Chieftain

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    You make some great points, @Sostratus . A starting point to fix this would be to flatten the chop progression line and tweak district costs. Another would be to increase tile yields automatically in a gradual way with tech/civic progression (with improvements adding significant 'bumps' to this automatic gradual progression). This is such an important topic since, as others have pointed out, it diminishes other aspects of the game.
     
  2. The googles do nothing

    The googles do nothing King

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    That's Sean Bean worthy.

    The way to reduce chopping would be to give science yields to un-chopped tiles. Because it's not that your just trading production now or production long-term. You also gaining those secondary benefits from a campus or new city earlier.
     
  3. Denkt

    Denkt Left Forever

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    However cities gets larger with more population so while the individual tiles are not as productive compared to chopping, the quantity of population make up for that. The main problem is the cost of buildings have not relationship with their value which mean a workshop cost twice as much as a library while only producing the same amount of value in terms of resources.

    Later in the game there is Little reason not to chop because you can plant new forest to increase your production.
     
  4. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    The proposal of chopping is whether you want to trade yield per turn for lump sum yield now. A forest is worth 1 production per turn, and chopping it yields 20-200 production. It doesn't matter how many forests you are working; either your circumstances are such that you should chop or you shouldn't. It really is an individual tile game. Look up "Annuity Formulas" or how a mortgage payment is calculated. It's the same math: you can value a series of "payments" of 1 production over a period of time (game turns remaining) and apply an inflation or discount rate, to tell you how much that stream of 1 production is worth right now.
    Of course, forests are almost universally chopped, it's bonus resources that people struggle with. Same concept though, the only difference is that a resource tile can either be improved or harvested (both of which take one builder charge) and improvements get a little stronger over time. So you can at least make a determination for newly acquired tiles that's going to be fairly robust. For existing tiles, you'd have to add in the cost of creating the builders, which is messy, and takes a ton of micromanagement.

    Your point is applicable to the struggles of late game production, though. Cities really don't become much more productive after you hit your t3 government, but everything still gets more and more expensive- and you can't pool production is one city like science and culture gets added together. Plus, newly founded cities have low population regardless of when they are founded, so they're still stuck working tiles and having trade routes. (This is a huge huge part of why mid and late conquest is extremely strong- everything is already built for you!)
     
  5. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    You know what , I stopped playing civ6 just because I lacked time. I did not manage to come back to play just for one reason. I'm tired of playing sim-lumberjack. It feels to me that all and everything revolves around pushing magnus around and cutting woods. It was ok for a while because it just meant I'd have to learn to optimize around a new mechanism. But it isn't fun anymore. It doesn't really matter which civ I play or which flavor I want to go to in terms of victory. Policy card don't matter that much unless they allow for overflow. it's all about getting the builders ready and moving Magnus around. If they somehow alter the whole building cost and chop numbers I might consider playing again because in fact everything else feels fun in the game, the leaders , the cards.
     
    Civrinn likes this.
  6. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    Even if it's sub-optimal play, I don't chop much. I'll chop if I'm going to put a district somewhere, or if I'm really close to a wonder I can see someone building, but otherwise I leave resources and features there.
     
    LoneDragon likes this.
  7. Civrinn

    Civrinn Chieftain

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    This and many other factors are why i stopped playing 6. Still doing the Civ 5 Vox Populi. I also don't expect much from an expansion because it will simply add content onto an already flawed game. It won't actually address issues. Modders can and will in the future (hopefully) and when that does I will be back on board the 6 train.
     
    Zuizgond likes this.
  8. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    No one is forcing you to chop, I think forests look pretty. Though I still chop every forest on a hill. Unless I'm playing a civ that values appeal more. Flat forest I may chop if I want a farming triangle, otherwise I keep them.

    I play the game like I'm going to play forever. Even though I do always stop once victory is achieved.

    I really can't harvest resources, I know I should, but I just can't. Very rarely will I, usually only when I can get +4 adjacency campus or something. Though I didn't do that in my current game. I opted for +3 campus instead and kept my copper sitting on a hill with 4 mountains around it. Not that much difference between 3 and 4.
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I will play on king and not chop anything. I often do not chop much just because I CBA and you really do not need to unless on deity. And deity just is a warped game, way to bent to mean anything.
    Understanding and doing are quite different things.
     
  10. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    I completely agree. In every version of Civ, the Deity level is not so much a difficulty, but more an exercise in abusing the game mechanics to overcome the bonuses which the AI gets. In many cases, this involves turning what is intended to be an AI bonus into an advantage for the clever player (pat yourself on the back here) by exploiting what the AI is not very good at (which has generally been war since moving to 1UPT in Civ5).

    For this reason, once I have played through a few games on Deity, I prefer to back off to Emperor or Immortal level for most games so that I can enjoy the full features of the game as designed rather than having to play a particular formula.

    I do still chop a lot of forests in Civ6. I do not remove very many resources unless I need the tile to place a district or a wonder.
     
    Sostratus likes this.
  11. Denkt

    Denkt Left Forever

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    This is more or less something that applies to all civ games, atleast in Civilization VI you can play deity as a normal game without serious exploits while older civ game it may have been much more about exploiting the ai.
     
  12. Smity2k1

    Smity2k1 Warlord

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    So basically we all agree that chopping bonuses need to be slightly reduced, or tile yields and improvement bonuses need to be slightly buffed, or a combination of both.

    Edit: while we are at it, let's balance district and building yields too.
     
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