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Harvshepsut of Egypt (NOT Earth 18)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Tried, but can't figure out what this means.
     
  2. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I’m still trying. :crazy-eyes:

    Anyway, if I pop a scientist in 8 turns, what should I do?
     
  3. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I'd assume you need to do a lot of research still, so an academy makes sense. Can you seriously explain what you mean with "1 food, 1.5 hammers, 2.25 commerce"? I don't understand where you got those numbers and what do they stand for.
     
  4. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I made up those numbers based on some inherently flawed assumptions I made and I was trying to use those numbers to evaluate the decision I have been making. At first, I thought the following:

    I can build a farm, for 1 food.
    I can build a mine, for 2 hammers.
    I can build a cottage, for what will eventually be 4 commerce.
    I can change from working the farm to working a town, exchanging 1 food for 4 commerce.
    If I change from working a cottage to working a farm, I give up 1 commerce now, and delay the growth of the town by one turn, giving up another commerce within ten turns, another commerce twenty turns after this growth, and fourth commerce after the growth to village, for a total of 4.

    You can see a flaw. Given a choice between working a town for 4 commerce, or a cottage for 1 commerce, you would choose the town. Obviously, the town is worth more than the cottage. The same applies to working a village for 3 commerce, compared to working a cottage for 1 commerce. Given a choice between working two cottages, you are likely to choose the cottage that is closer to becoming a hamlet. That means those turns are worth money. You get the extra commerce sooner. Similarly, given a choice between working a cost tile for two food and two commerce, or working a grassland hamlet for two food and two commerce, you would very likely choose the hamlet. The growth is worth something.

    Given a choice between working a grassland cottage tile and the coast tile, you might make a value judgement between the extra commerce coming from the coast tile versus the commerce you get later when the cottage grows. Of course, there might have been a reason you built that cottage in the first place.

    On the subject of the relative value of food, hammers, and commerce, it always depends. I was looking for ways in which they can be exchanged. This time, I assume green tiles are equal to each other, and brown tiles are equal to each other, but less than green tiles. If I want to exchange food for hammers, I might change from a green farm for 3 food, to a green mine for 1 food and 3 hammers. I traded 2 food for 3 hammers, for an exchange rate of 1.5.

    If I work 1 green farm and 1 green hill, I get a total of 4 food and 3 hammers. Taking out 4 food for population support, this is a net of 3 hammers. This is an average of 1.5 hammers per improved green tile. I can get a similar balance with two cottages. I can switch from working one farm and one mine to working two cottages and net food did not change, hammers decreased by 3, and we are working two cottages. The value of the cottages increases as they get worked, so it's harder to tell when they are equal and we can make time-value calculations.

    On the side of specialists, I can run a scientist for 3 beakers. I can run an engineer for 2 hammers, so you might say they are equal and 1 hammer = 1.5 commerce. However, we can also run a priest for 1 hammer and 1 gold, so the priest is then worth less than the other specialists - or the great prophet points are worth more. Or we can say 1 hammer = 2.0 commerce and now the engineer is the odd one out, worth more.

    The next flaw I am trying to figure out is the food to run specialists or mines generally does not come from grassland farms. They usually come from special food tiles.

    TLDR:
    I think 1 food is approximately equivalent to 1.5 hammers.
    I think 1 hammer is approximately equivalent to 1.5 commerce.
    I think 1 food is approximately equivalent to 2.25 commerce.


    On the subject of running specialists, I was seeing a scientist as 0 food and 3 beakers if it is in a city that will never produce a great scientist. If I had a plains mine, it was an exchange of 4 hammers for 3 beakers. I could run wealth and come out ahead. If I was producing a great scientist, then I can look at it like I'm building one with a mine. The mine runs 4 hammers for 33.33 turns, for a total of 133.33 hammers to get 100 beakers and a great scientist.

    With representation, exchanging 4 hammers for 6 beakers is not as terrible. Based on the exchange rate above, the great scientist points are a bonus.

    Going back to my game and looking over the past few turns, it looks like whipping things and growing the population back had priority over running scientists. I am trying to change that.
     
  5. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Post Zulus, Session 5
    to Turn 115 / 1AD

    Spoiler :

    Turn 108 - Metal Casting

    Turn 111 - The borders of Giza popped and we got Horseback Riding from the village guarded by that barbarian archer. With nothing left to protect, it attacked, but lost to the war chariot.

    Turn 113 - We founded Byblos. The economy is still solvent.
    upload_2020-3-9_22-3-23.png

    There is one more city to settle on the opposite coast. I have not yet decided where the settler is going to come from, but should decide soon. It will probably be Memphis.

    The rest of the city sites I believe are fill. Nobody likes any site by the copper. The iron is probably even less popular. However, I might be able to get a site that captures one of the deer. It depends on just how badly we need that iron. We will need it eventually.


    We also got our first great person, an engineer. Since we have been talking about bee-lining Optics, a Machinery bulb gets us almost halfway there. I looked it up. It is worth 1046 bulbs and probably a good 15 turns to research.

    We will get Calendar next turn. I thought this was a good diversion to research, because we have one resource, the spices. This will allow all of our cities to grow by one. The tiles will also provide a lot of commerce. I already said I should get that settler going to claim the rest of those spice tiles.

    After that, I don't see much point in going down the path to Great Library. I would have to research Aesthetics, Polytheism, and Literature, when I am supposed to be researching the Compass and Optics. Code of Laws might still be useful for Caste System and unlimited scientists. We have a few small city sites that produce enough surplus for 3 specialists. We might be running out of things to whip, except on occasion.
     

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  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Ah yes. Well, it always depends like you say. I'd value 1:food: higher than 1.5:hammers:, mainly due to whip. :hammers: can be great, especially failgold or wonders (units can be whipped, except in the very early game). :commerce: can be very important, especially in peace times when often the best use for :hammers: is to build wealth and failgold when available. In that stage, maybe a :hammers: is on par with :commerce:. I think for a general guide, post-granary, peaceful play (i.e. empire is trying to max tech speed), 1-2-2 is not far off.
     
  7. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    1AD comments: You are running out of buildings to whip, because you are overbuilding buildings. :) Not horribly though, I mean you are not building say markets everywhere. Heliopolis should seriously stop the project that is never finishing and whip a lighthouse. This is a city that has seafood, so a lighthouse is excellent. I think clearly the best spot for moai is capital here (3*seafood+lake and you want to work those anyway, while even moai coast is not that great). One thing to note is that none of your cities are building wealth. At this point the main objective should be to get optics asap (for tech trades) and then astro asap (for trade routes and resources trades). Building wealth reaches the objective faster than building buildings. I don't like going calendar at all just for one resource, as you should be able to get it via trade at some point.

    To summarise: At this point you do pretty much nothing with :hammers:. Main objective in city management is to grow to max size and squeeze out as much :commerce:/:science: as you can. This means many buildings are bad and building wealth is good.
     
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  8. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    .....and RIP computer. Windows update failed and it could not reload the backup - or I had heating issues and couldn’t run much with graphics. It is going to be a few days.
     
  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Considering what you said about wealth building between whips, I had another weird thought to confuse you more.

    Say between whips, I am working on some big building project that might eventually be useful, say a forge. At size 8, I can have it by whipping 4 population. It takes 14 food to grow from 4 to 5. If I already had 30 hammers, then I only whip 3 population.

    Basically, those 30 hammers got converted to 14 food. If I built wealth instead, then the 14 food got converted to 30 gold and suddenly that seems like not such a terrible deal.

    As a bonus, I might not be building something silly between whips. I will give it more thought!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Depends on the tiles available and the :)-situation, but I think usually it's indeed best to put in 1T of :hammers: and whip.
     
  11. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Maybe I get lucky and find my old CDs and key. Maybe I find another copy very cheap. Maybe I get my old machine rebooted.
     
  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Cd's are a pain to install. I would buy it off steam. You based in America?

    How old is your PC? I am using a Ryzen 1600 with 16gb of ram. Works a treat for Civ 4. Your system can't be that bad if your running huge maps?

    I really doubt civ 4 uses much in way of GPU. I think main bottleneck is memory issues. Albeit graphics with more memory will help.
     
  13. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    It looks a lot cheaper than gog. I saw something about a 2k week.

    My machine was 9 years old. It really just needs a boot stick among other things.
     
  14. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    9 years.is quite old. My old dual core CPU struggled to do many things in it's dying days. You really do notice the difference jumping from old to new. Ram alone should be much faster. Graphics too. A Soldi state drive can also speed up an old machine but it can't fix an old CPU.

    The new Ryzen CPU are more than capable. Pends what you can upgrade to. That or let your current machine grind on till it fails.

    Intel has been tweaking it's 14nm process for about 5-6 years now. Acckkk. With about 4-5 new chipsets in the process. Madness!
     
  15. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Nice sale! BTS was about $10.00 and Civ 4 Complete was $7.50. The net value of Civ 4 Colonization is -$2.50.

    Added: Okay, I successfully loaded my 1AD save. I had the BUG mod before. The game is on Steam. Do you know how I can get BUG working on Steam? I think I can figure it out with some online work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  16. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    We reloaded on a new computer
    to 400 AD

    So the good news: I have a new rig. It says it's below specifications for Civ 4, but I don't believe that. I will have to reload all the graphics.
    The bad news: I have not figured out how to load the bug mod when I'm playing the game from Steam.

    I also got hit by Corona. I'm about six Coronas in, so not focusing perfectly. I should be better by late evening Saturday, England or Finland time. That is where my advice seems to be coming from.

    We built the Hanging Gardens, probably for no good reason. Maybe it helps us.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-13_20-55-51.png

    This was in the same turn we founded another city.
    .....and I forgot to save the image.

    I blame Corona.
    Spoiler :


    We finally researched Optics.

    In other news..... We should have the Moai Statues in Heliopolis an about 50 more turns.
     

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  17. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    No point teching alphabet. I prefer the lit route now. On Monarch level be amazed if they have got that far. All ai will trade alphabet.

    If you want to build The Collossus you probably want the copper city. MoM wonder is very nice. I would have 2-3 workers chopping that.

    Heliopolis should give up on that wonder. Waste of time. Better in your capital. Still too slow there.

    I would whip 2xcaravels.

    For some reason Civ 4 seems to think most systems are not capable of running the game. Can't remember if my system ever had that message.

    Elephantine should probably run 2 scientists. Same for Umung? Elphantine might be a better city to whip for caravel. It's mot going to do anything special.

    Too much forest left here.
     
  18. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Alphabet - I was thinking Alphabet at the time because I will get a great scientist eventually and don't want to bulb the alphabet. It is very likely I can get it from trade. Is it worthwhile grabbing Code of Laws? Nobody has researched it yet and I might get the religion so that everybody on the other continent hates me and I have some maintenance costs to justify courthouses. Otherwise Literature it is.

    Colossus - Oops, I forgot I don't have copper, or any metal. I should have posted the save one turn earlier.

    Caravels - I'm thinking two or three, one on each coast. Elephantine is a great choice, because it has nothing special. I wanted a third caravel, just in case Mansa happens to be playing an isolation game on an island to the north of us. I think there is more land further north.

    Mansa is out there. I checked the T0 demographics when I was trying to figure out what it means. He will be a great tech trading partner.
     
  19. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    540 AD

    In 492, we sailed the ocean blue and discovered the Spanish. History is working itself out backwards.

    I went with the Arts route as advised.
    Turn 135 - Aesthetics
    Turn 136 - Mysticism
    Turn 137 - Polytheism

    It looks like we will have Literature next turn as well.

    I cut this turn set short, because we have already discovered the Old World.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-14_15-30-17.png



    We are a little bit behind, but maybe can get back into the running. We have some trade bait. It turns out they do have Literature. I knew they already had Aesthetics when I saw the Statue of Zeus built. I have not got around to checking where the other world wonders might be.

    I don't remember seeing a Great Artist, so there is a race for Music if I want it. I do remember Christianity being founded, and I think Mansa got it.

    That leaves one civilization out there and I don't know what it is.

    So do I trade with these guys now or do I wait until we meet Mansa Musa and the other AI civilization we don't know yet?

    Added: Looking at the picture, Izzy is missing Metal Casting and Calendar. We should be able to get quite a bit of tech from trading either of them. This might also have been why I might have done well to not research Calendar, since it looks like they already have it. I could have had this contact about 10 turns sooner, along with Literature.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Bee lining astronomy for trade routes may have been a better move here. Small delay really.

    Ai already have lit. So getting Glibrary would need some serious chopping. You do seem 1-2 workers light here given all this forest/jungle still around. You can chop into wealth. It would store the hammers. Of course you would need to chop 5-6 forest for G lib. 2 workers would take too long. Fail gold is still useful as it almost repays lit diversion.

    Would you win music race? Possible. Pends if AI have had lit for a while.

    You can chop in cities running wealth.

    I wouldn't dilute GP pools too much. A GE is not a great resut here. I assume you plan cuirs and galleons to win game? You should be cruising science wise here with monarch AI and cheaper techs than higher levels.

    Up to you on trades. If you had 2xgs you could bulb astronomy once you trade for alphabet. For that a golden age might be required. Don't trade away big techs for the small stuff. Not worth it.

    So Trade routes vs a possible G art and a possible wonder. Whip a worker somewhere to speed it up?

    You need a great person for a golden age. Bulbing techs really helps.
     

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