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Harvshepsut of Egypt (NOT Earth 18)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Give Pacifism a Chance
    to Turn 161

    I did a few of the unthinkable things. A few of them were in the "What was I thinking?!" category.

    Spoiler :

    First, the civics. I decided to give Pacifism a chance.
    upload_2020-3-20_21-45-11.png

    I did not see any whips over the next five turns, so went with Serfdom. The alternative was Caste System, which I was also very unlikely to use. Serfdom has low cost like Tribalism, but workers complete stuff a little faster, so might as well. Pacifism costs nothing, except for our military units, which are not that many.

    Then I decided to follow Izzy into Buddhism. Taoism is a better choice because of cities with Taoism. We could get a bunch of extra GPP. Buddhist cities are not generating that many GPP. This is still easily fixable.

    In other news, with Izzy, we are stuck in the friend-zone.

    upload_2020-3-20_21-49-14.png

    Did I say we were giving Pacifism a chance? The turn after going Pacifist, we started a war with the Russians. So far, it is a phony war. We are busy enough securing that island.

    upload_2020-3-20_21-51-2.png

    Did I say we were giving Pacifism a chance?

    upload_2020-3-20_21-51-27.png

    upload_2020-3-20_21-51-37.png



    Research is clipping along.

    Turn 158 - Engineering
    Turn 158 - We traded Music to Zara for Theology and 80 gp. Since it was unique, we probably could have got more, but that was all we could get.
    Turn 159 - Guilds (We had an Engineer bulb.)
    Turn 160 - Paper

    So at Turn 161, I am preparing to change back into Slavery and whip some stuff like courthouses.

    Religion - Continue 'working' with Izzy and spread Buddhism to main cities or switch to Taoism? I plan to have state religion in all cities, except Ulundi, which can have the state religion after we discover the Printing Press. I would like to see this Attacko gambit in action.

    Research - I currently have Education to set up the Liberalism slingshot. Then I can look at what I can get with it. We seem to be building a tech lead. Izzy and Peter seem to be in a war. That probably means Zara runs away with the lead.

    It looks like the game is at a point where I can make reasonably bad decisions. ;)
     

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  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @Harv I think you are struggling at this point of the game because you either don't have a plan or you don't stick to it. The point of engineering was to switch tech off, put all :commerce: into rush buying, get an army, win. Now you are not doing that and teching engineering was moot. You are going liberalism perhaps teching towards rifling, which was a fine idea, but engineering plays no part in it. Engineering is a dead end tech and you probably could get it via trade, for free, later.

    Pacifism is probably the best civic in the religious branch, but it should be used during golden ages, since a golden age also boosts :gp:-generation by 100%.

    Some screenshots of what my empire looks like during a golden age:
    Spoiler :
    Three biggest cities run max amount of :gp: during the music golden age. Before that cities have grown as big as they can, without whipping any marginally useful buildings. Warriors are there to keep the city happy (HR). A GS can bulb +1500:science:, so as a maths guy you can calculate the value of running those scientists... It must be an insane amount of :science: per scientist. Like 50:science: per scientist, assuming it's for 2nd, 3rd and 4th :gp:? This is why it's so good to grow to :)-cap (and :health:-cap to a less extent, you can go over it with enough food), start a golden age, switch to caste+paci and get those great persons out asap. This map was insanely rich, so I'm way ahead of a typical schedule already starting the GA 300BC. Also note that only :food:-positive tiles are worked, others are ignored.

    Civ4ScreenShot0215.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0216.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0217.JPG



    Back to your game: My suggestion would be to try to lib rifling. You are so far ahead in tech you won't have any problems getting there in time. I'd switch to printing press now to boost those cottages, then banking-RP, then education (half-bulb), gunpowder and finally lib rifling. It's certainly not the only way, you can also lib printing press, but as it's much cheaper than rifling, it's inefficient.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    You beelined engineering ahead of philosophy. Which meant no pacifism during your golden age. Also no NE built. If you discover the religion you would have at least 2 cities with the religion. Not brilliant.

    Looks like you used 1 GS for philosophy. This seems a waste as it would of got 1700-1800 beakers with Edu, Not sure where the other went.

    Your building more building. I guess at those costs court houses may help. Whipping at size 12 is less efficient. Markets not so useful.

    Serfdom. Hmmm. Do your workers have that much to do? Yes should of run bureau. Caste/slavery are the main 2 I use.

    That barb island is a big distraction. Did you build 5-6 HA to attack it? That is not a well placed city. Plus colonial costs will kick in for each city not on your continent.

    I wouldn't focus too much on spreading religion. Is this going to win you the game?

    To date you have shpwn no real intent to win this game. Trebs and Mace will be an uphill struggle come 1100ad. You either wanted to beeline cuirs or go rifles/cannons. Even rifles on their own would work with a few frigates,
     
  4. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    No, he had philo before engineering.
    That is not what he is doing though, now he is going for liberalism... To me, trebs and maces are insta-win if you look at the trade screen. Let me remind you that this is monarch.
     
  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yes Monarch but they have room for plenty of cities. 1100-1200ad attack is late.Longbows and castles can be very annoying. They will likely have knights too.Albeit he should be able to bring a stack 20+. It will take ages to move mace/treb across his land. Guess we will see how he copes.

    It's more the time. If one AI vassals you will struggle to get a quick vassal. Plus time to get units there. He could of been building mace now.

    I think he bulbed it.
     
  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    No, we won't. If you read the last report he is going liberalism.
     
  7. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Great People:

    1. Engineer - Bulbed Machinery
    I went with this, because I was trying to get to Optics and this almost cut the time in half.
    A. Artist - Started Golden Age
    It sounds like I did this too soon and should have let my cities grow. This was more apparent when Astronomy opened up trade with the other continent.
    Only two Great People resulted from the Golden Age.
    2. Scientist - Bulb towards Astronomy
    3. Scientist - Academy in Thebes
    It will take a while for this to pay off, but we have two free scientists there.
    4. Engineer - Bulb Guilds
    I thought it made more sense than a free wonder. It was still about 1200 bulbs, not quite as good as a scientist.
    It would take a long time to pay off settling in Thebes.
    M. Merchant - remains to be seen.
    I am going to see what a Great Merchant can do in Spain.

    to Turn 170

    We switched back into Slavery. I am trying a ten turn cycle. Turn 166 to 171 was back to Serfdom. I figure if I do it this way, it is a lot of micro, but I can get 25 to 30% more from my workers and save a little bit of money. It means for five turns, we can't whip and those same turns should be recovering from the whip.

    Spoiler :

    I built another city in a pointless location.
    upload_2020-3-21_11-35-42.png

    It is about equivalent to Elephantine, but has one more commerce and an iron tile. I did not count the coast tiles.

    Going along with the wonder spam, I built the Angkor Wat.
    upload_2020-3-21_11-37-8.png


    I don't remember what my plan was. Ulundi does not have much of a food surplus to run all the great people. Heliopolis does, so was a better location.

    So far, I have decided to work with the isolation and tech lead to build on that. It will be quite a few turns before I think about how to break into the continent. It won't be with trebs and maces at 1100 AD. It would probably take 100 years just to cross the Pacific Ocean and invade Russia, who appears to be quite backwards. I might look at my situation when we get closer to cannons and rifles.

    This is also one turn before switching back to slavery, so I can look at what to whip.
     

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  8. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Does Abydos or Angkor Wat help you win the game faster? Definitely not. If you want to improve, you need to have a coherent plan and have your whole empire trying to reach this goal as fast as it can. My suggested plan was to lib rifling and it appears you are doing just that, which is good. After that the plan should be to conquer enemies as fast as you can. So you can start building boats, trebs, even maces as not all your army needs to be rifles, some weaker guys are very good addition, too. Your initial attack army should be at least 20 units, but more is better. I'd say 10 galleons is a good number. Try to attack as fast as you can after reaching rifling. I guess the alternative is just to tech ahead aim to win space, but I can't help you with that really.
     
  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Trade Mission to Barcelona
    to Turn 183

    The spam continues.

    Spoiler :

    More cities that will do little to make us win faster.
    upload_2020-3-21_19-14-59.png

    The sideshow on the island continues.
    upload_2020-3-21_19-15-23.png

    A couple more cities on the mainland.

    upload_2020-3-21_19-15-36.png

    upload_2020-3-21_19-16-1.png



    Technology:
    Turn 176 - Nationalism - I did not want anybody else suddenly getting a golden age and we still get an extended golden age and it will still be useful.
    Turn 178 - Gunpowder
    Turn 181 - Chemistry - I wanted to set up Steel for the Liberalism slingshot just in case
    Turn 182 - Printing Press

    The Great Merchant made it to Barcelona for a trade Mission worth 1500 gp.
    We popped another Great Scientist to bulb 1890 beakers towards Printing Press.

    On the subject of technology:
    We are three turns from Liberalism and we can use the slingshot to grab Steel.
    After that, then we need Replaceable Parts, then Rifling.
    So I think that's a total of about 10 turns.
    Based on what you were explaining, we need no more technology after that.
    I checked down the path of Steam Engine - Assembly Line, and that is a long way.

    Finally, on the invasion of Russia:
    6 Galleons would allow us to transport 18 units. We have 1 so far. We can get the others by whipping the coastal cities.
    It will take us about 8 turns to cross that big ocean. It is a lot of tiles! It might be only 3 turns to cross the other ocean and use our OB with Izzy. It would allow us to reinforce faster.
    Either way, we cross the ocean unchallenged. Nobody else even has Optics.
    The liberalism slingshot would allow us to start building cannons.
    If we start building units, a switch to Vassalage / Theocracy would be in order. Is there any use of Nationhood instead of Vassalage?
    We can run 5 turns Police State / 5 turns Universal Sufferage, if we are really building a whole bunch of gold in the treasury to spend on units.
    Then there is all that junk in the build queues to clear! :lol:
     

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  10. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Golden Age, Part 1
    to Turn 207

    Turn 186 - Liberalism and Steel
    Turn 190 - Replaceable Parts
    Turn 195 - Rifling, and also Drama from Zara for Music, because I felt like it.
    Turn 202 - Military Tradition

    Spoiler :

    Another pointless city in a pointless location
    upload_2020-3-21_23-42-36.png

    We built the Taj Mahal
    upload_2020-3-21_23-43-2.png

    ...and used this as our excuse to set up our civics
    upload_2020-3-21_23-44-6.png

    We shall see how long the invasion takes.

    Here is a stack of Russian units.

    upload_2020-3-21_23-44-43.png

    We managed to capture St. Petersburg.
    upload_2020-3-21_23-45-13.png

    That is a full 20 turns since my last post! So yes, I have been taking my time.

    Meanwhile, the Russians showed up with their stack.
    upload_2020-3-21_23-46-20.png

    Those three rifles out there got trapped, because I decided on a worker steal and I tried to get them back to St. Petersburg. So shamefully, I lost thee rifles to a stack of Classical Era units. We did take out quite a few units. I think we got all the catapults and they did not hang around St. Petersburg too long.


    The next Great Person is an Engineer. I have not decided what to do. Maybe I use him to rush-build West Point. Or maybe he just hangs around to see if we can keep this Golden Age going.

    I had a Scientist and Artist before that, and that's exactly what I decided to do, so we have a Golden Age until Turn 215.
     

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  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    1. Galleon chaining. 2. Drafting. 3 whipping. 4. Attacking from Spanish coast. 5. Have galleons ready before your main units are ready to be produced. These are the main issues to focus on in future.

    Distance to Russian cost 30 tiles. Distance to Spanish cost 17 tiles.
    You will need a lot more galleons going to Russian coast.

    Galleon chaining. If a galleon is on top of another galleon once it's finnished its move you can click on the loaded units and move them to a galleon with 5MP left.This way you can have a chain of 7 or so galleons and 3 units reach coast to coast in 1 turn. If you have a captured city you can unload them too.
    This is why 7-8 galleons would of been ample if you went from east coast. From west coast you needed 12 or so. It looks like you have loaded 6-7 Galleons and sailed them all in one go. I count 10-12 units sitting in shifts 5-6+ turns from coast. 5 or so waiting on coast. Your stack should of been 25 in that city.

    Galleon production. If you have astronomy and you are planning a war you should of been whipping galleons so your galleon chain was ready before you started whipping offensive units. You had astronomy for ages.

    Don't be afraid to use cavalry here. They will move across land much quicker.

    Sampsa said producing an army as quick as possible. You are simply not doing this.
    Nationalism! You could be drafting 3 rifles a turn. Sure creates unhappiness but it wears off and you have plenty of cities to rotate.
    Slavery! Why not whip a few rifles/mace? With drafting a low pop in cities counteracts draft unhappiness.
    In one turn you could have 3 drafted rifles and 4-5 whipped rifles/cannons. Over 5 turns you could have 25-30 units.

    Your building a lot of mace here. Mace odds against castles won't be great. Albeit some weaker units are okay. Rifles or cavalry will be much better. I guess mop up units for mace. With drafting mace should be an after thought

    You are not using some basics here and you are paying the cost for it. Always wait for advice.
     
  12. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I experimented a bit with the drafting and will use it soon. The 3 anger is almost counterbalanced with the barracks, making it similar to a whip, except we are getting a 110 hammer unit for 1 population.

    5 more turns to Turn 212

    Spoiler :

    Here was a stack of Russian units. I'm nut sure why they had a strength of 11, or if that was a display bug.
    upload_2020-3-22_10-13-6.png

    11 might have been a knight with Combat 1.

    The Greeks were moving a bunch of units around St. Peterburg and decided to strike.
    upload_2020-3-22_10-14-24.png

    We have achieved Villain status.
    upload_2020-3-22_10-14-57.png

    I have no idea if the villain status remains as a +5 penalty forever.

    Meanwhile, the Greek Fleet has arrived.
    upload_2020-3-22_10-16-29.png

    ....and we captured Moscow.
    upload_2020-3-22_10-16-51.png



    This gives us some space.

    We have another Great general. Should I promote another Warrior to Healer and roll another front? I might also do well to build an Academy in Ulundi.
     

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  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Why not use galleon chains? So units can be transfered to any galleon they are on top of. You would save so much time here. Would also stop you building 3-4 more galleons which you don't need.

    You would do better to follow my previous advice. Academy/healers now mean little. If you have enough units for a second stack then maybe.

    Russians are offering capitulation. I would take this.

    If your power is high enough AI will capitulate if you win the first 14 or so combats at start of war. So if the Greeks land troops which they should as they have 5 galleys. Attack with rifles to kill strongest units then use cannons at 95% odds. With rifles to kill remains. If you win all these combats the Ai could well capitulate if they have already suicided knights previously. Check each turn after the first 8 combate to see if they will capitulate,

    Same can be done for Spanish. Wait for their stack and ambush making sure you get combat odds 90%+. If you lose a single combat they will fight on. Use your explorer each turn to check how close their stack is. Always retreat back to your city, His 1mp units with engineering can move 3 tiles.

    You will need to take down Ethiopians and Hammy. This will be harder as one of the Ai is a vassal. Hammy has military science but shouldn't really matter with cannons. You have enough troops to take care of them both.
     
  14. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    The advice to take Peter as a vassal was on point. The next turn, we destroyed the Greek stack and they capitulated as well. The world was at peace.

    It probably would have been much quicker to just finish off the other AI's, but I have a weak stomach and hate attacking AI's who like me. So I embraced the world peace and went back to teching.

    The other AI's were actually pretty good at teching as well, except Peter's Russia.

    So Space Race it is.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-23_22-27-24.png

    upload_2020-3-23_22-27-34.png


    Thank you for your help. I was probably otherwise going to ragequit when I was having trouble getting a War Chariot Rush going at Shaka to secure the continent.

    Other tricks were useful.
    Seafood start, but no fishing. Start Worker, tech Fishing, build work boat, finish Worker.
    Put everything into the early rush.
    Isolation and Pyramids and Optics and Astronomy.
    Galleon chains, even if I didn't use them properly, I finally understand how it is actually done.
    Drafting, same as above.

    Any ideas for another map to play?
    Leader - Hatty was Spiritual and Creative, and I would like to use Creative as my crutch, so another creative leader.
    So the consequences of being not Spiritual is the anarchy between civic changes and we have to plan more carefully.
    Hopefully that is made up in the other trait.
    Unique Unit - Right now, I would prefer something that is available early, like the Classical era.
    Unique Building - Similar. However, in this game I did not build a single Obelisk. I see it as situational. In this case, we were very late getting a religion.

    Map Settings:
    I would prefer something similar to Continents, to get the feel of being in the Old World or New World, trying to discover the other continent. The only drawback to the Continents map is they tend to be shaped like potatoes.
    This time - no events, no random events.

    We did get the Hindenburg crash! We also flew over the North Pole.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-23_22-40-16.png

    upload_2020-3-23_22-40-38.png
     
  15. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think it was a great idea to replay the start many times to get a better hang of the early game. As you can see, after that everything is so much easier, despite your play was mostly unfocused and you didn't stick to a plan. A lot to improve for the next game, but now you probably understand what you are supposed to be doing. I encourage you to move to emperor asap. :)
     
  16. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I thought I was going to destroy my thread with so many replays.

    When we got to the other continent with astronomy, we had an advantage. We would do well to figure out how to do that in fewer turns.

    After that is where you say focus was lost and I might say it resembled a noble level game where we could do anything and everything.

    Going to the space race, there were places where I could have shaved off turns, but I did not give much detail, just a conclusion.

    Monarch / noble might teach bad habits. Also, I do not have that much experience with the game that many turns in. I often stop much sooner.

    So same map settings as before.
    I will do Continents again.
    No huts.
    No events.
    Emperor.

    I really do not understand why random leaders are so popular in some games. I would rather choose.

    This time I’m thinking Perry of Greece.
     

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