FurballRocker
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2016
- Messages
- 77
Concentrating on the issue of improving the game it would seem that the majority of people want to revert to stacking because of poor AI and/or movement issues.
So to improve the game experience we need to look at fixing those two issues.
People seem to be under the impression that the poor AI is a symptom of 1Upt but if we look at the core AI issue we find that they generally boil down to.
1) Not placing or using districts properly
2) Not upgrading units properly
3) Not attacking with units properly
4) Not building certain units
5) Not making reasonable deals in diplomacy
6) Not expanding enough
None of these issues have anything to do with if units can stack or not.
1) Has nothing to do with units. AI needs to be given plans for how to use districts, even just which districts are best for which victory condition and the ability to forward plan or at least be able to buy tiles to place districts.
2) Even if units could stack tha. t wouldn't solve them not being upgraded. This is kind of tied to (6) in the sense that resources are too rare for the current design so even with enough gold to upgrade and the tech the AI is prevented from doing so. There is a nice mod which fixed this were having a resource gave a bonus to units but wasn't an actual requirement for building them.
3) A stack of a million units that won't actually attack an undefended city is still useless. Again there is a mod to help with this which allows the AI ranged units to move and fire by default but that doesn't help melee and doesn't really solve the core issues where a swarm of AI units will dance around a city not attacking it so if all those units were putinto a single stack then that single stack would then dance around the city not attacking it.
4) If you don't build them in the first place it doesn't matter if they stack or not. This seems to be tied to (1) and (6) in the sense that the AI doesn't seem to build airports or have the resources to build aircraft most of the time even if they do.
5) Just has nothing to do with units and i am not sure why it is so hard to do some basic calculations for deals.
6) The AI seems to build 3-5 cities and then sits there with vast open spaces left over for most of the game. They don't build the settlers or have the aggressive expansionism programmed in.
Therefore poor AI is actually a symptom of poor programming and design.
Now for the second part, movement issues, which could be seen as a symptom of 1Upt but really isn't and for the most part can be easily solved.e.g. builders should be on their own layer so they can pass through none enemy units which don't belong to you. Religious units should also be on their own layer for the same reason and that would solve most of the core issues and adding a 'transport stacking' feature would help a lot also where units could stack to move but couldn't fight while stacked like troops in a truck convoy or on a train. I feel the movement rules in general could do with a tweak and sort of like the concept of the new movement rules for simplicity reasons i think the old rules were better.
A case which i feel needs talking about by itself is the difficulty it provides in moving large forces. Now some people find it annoying to have restrictions but the restrictions it gives provide a reasonable (note i haven't said realistic) representation of the issues military commanders have to face when moving larges numbers of troops over variable terrain and that is one of the best parts of 1Upt as it gives you another puzzle to solve while allowing for much greater scope of interesting decisions such as being able to block, surround, funnel and slow down an enemy effectively where it seems the issue for most people is when they encounter these limitations themselves and are on the receiving end of them. "A good mountain choke point is fun unless your on the receiving end of it" which really means some people don't like to be challenged.
I said movement issues aren't really a symptom of 1Upt because they are another symptom or poor programming and design coupled by the fact that some people don't like the challenge it provides where as a lot of people do like the challenge it provides. With that in mind i feel a lot of people who are anti 1Upt likely wouldn't be so anti 1Upt if the obvious design and programming issue were fixed.
So to improve the game experience we need to look at fixing those two issues.
People seem to be under the impression that the poor AI is a symptom of 1Upt but if we look at the core AI issue we find that they generally boil down to.
1) Not placing or using districts properly
2) Not upgrading units properly
3) Not attacking with units properly
4) Not building certain units
5) Not making reasonable deals in diplomacy
6) Not expanding enough
None of these issues have anything to do with if units can stack or not.
1) Has nothing to do with units. AI needs to be given plans for how to use districts, even just which districts are best for which victory condition and the ability to forward plan or at least be able to buy tiles to place districts.
2) Even if units could stack tha. t wouldn't solve them not being upgraded. This is kind of tied to (6) in the sense that resources are too rare for the current design so even with enough gold to upgrade and the tech the AI is prevented from doing so. There is a nice mod which fixed this were having a resource gave a bonus to units but wasn't an actual requirement for building them.
3) A stack of a million units that won't actually attack an undefended city is still useless. Again there is a mod to help with this which allows the AI ranged units to move and fire by default but that doesn't help melee and doesn't really solve the core issues where a swarm of AI units will dance around a city not attacking it so if all those units were putinto a single stack then that single stack would then dance around the city not attacking it.
4) If you don't build them in the first place it doesn't matter if they stack or not. This seems to be tied to (1) and (6) in the sense that the AI doesn't seem to build airports or have the resources to build aircraft most of the time even if they do.
5) Just has nothing to do with units and i am not sure why it is so hard to do some basic calculations for deals.
6) The AI seems to build 3-5 cities and then sits there with vast open spaces left over for most of the game. They don't build the settlers or have the aggressive expansionism programmed in.
Therefore poor AI is actually a symptom of poor programming and design.
Now for the second part, movement issues, which could be seen as a symptom of 1Upt but really isn't and for the most part can be easily solved.e.g. builders should be on their own layer so they can pass through none enemy units which don't belong to you. Religious units should also be on their own layer for the same reason and that would solve most of the core issues and adding a 'transport stacking' feature would help a lot also where units could stack to move but couldn't fight while stacked like troops in a truck convoy or on a train. I feel the movement rules in general could do with a tweak and sort of like the concept of the new movement rules for simplicity reasons i think the old rules were better.
A case which i feel needs talking about by itself is the difficulty it provides in moving large forces. Now some people find it annoying to have restrictions but the restrictions it gives provide a reasonable (note i haven't said realistic) representation of the issues military commanders have to face when moving larges numbers of troops over variable terrain and that is one of the best parts of 1Upt as it gives you another puzzle to solve while allowing for much greater scope of interesting decisions such as being able to block, surround, funnel and slow down an enemy effectively where it seems the issue for most people is when they encounter these limitations themselves and are on the receiving end of them. "A good mountain choke point is fun unless your on the receiving end of it" which really means some people don't like to be challenged.
I said movement issues aren't really a symptom of 1Upt because they are another symptom or poor programming and design coupled by the fact that some people don't like the challenge it provides where as a lot of people do like the challenge it provides. With that in mind i feel a lot of people who are anti 1Upt likely wouldn't be so anti 1Upt if the obvious design and programming issue were fixed.