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Has 1UPT Completely Destroyed this Franchise?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by CD7, Jan 13, 2017.

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  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I called others out for being disingenuous too.

    At tech parity against anything resembling competent opposition, moving even a very large stack into enemy territory is suicide in civ 4 due to collateral initiative and their greater mobility. In contrast, offensive forks, terrain promotions giving atypical units 2 moves and lots of defense, pillage threat, and forced trades on smaller stacks were all a part of the civ 4 tactical picture. Talking about "using stacks" in the way implied here is like saying Civ 6 tactics is limited to attacking cities with battering rams. Against the trash can AI, that's true. You can beat deity with only melee units and battering rams, all game long. That doesn't mean it's all the game offers, just like "big stack as possible" wasn't all civ 4 offered.

    I've said that already though.

    The civ 4 AI was not unpredictable, at all. It was a failing it had. I don't remember everything like I used to, but for most AI I can still tell you whether they can possibly attack, and whether they'll do it before taking time to prepare.

    Stack wars are not wars of attrition. Against the AI it was a war of "who attacks first and bodies every unit defending in 1-2 turns", since the AI never did anything more advanced.

    You are being inconsistent with your "1 UPT adds tactics" when saying this. Unit positioning is a fundamental consideration of tactical combat. You are simultaneously saying that reduced tactical strategy (less emphasis on importance of unit position) adds tactical strategy.

    Again, stripping terrain movement and defense bonuses makes the assertion that it's more important now than before questionable, at best.

    To be fair, the total population of programmers is quite large. You need more than "average" intelligence to do it (maybe? I'm not sure actually), but how much more depends on the kind of programming. What you quoted is likely a reasonable (but unhelpful) estimation of the population of many vocations, not just programming. You're a lot more likely to run into someone average for the vocation than a genius within that vocation by definition.

    After that, however, the generalization was painful to read.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  2. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

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    What you just said there makes absolutely no sense and I didn't say what you have implied.
     
  3. Rafein

    Rafein Chieftain

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    I see why they went away from 1 UPT, but meh, I would not mind seeing it go away. Simply having a set of units that do damage vs all units on a tile, so the bigger the stack, the more damage they do, would allow stacks to come back without bringing back the Stacks of Doom.
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Yes, it is correct to note that saying that reducing tactics adds tactics doesn't make sense.

    That is what you did when you stated the move to 1 UPT added tactics and terrain consideration. You said you liked a change that reduced tactical consideration (number of considerations when positioning and using units at war) because it added tactical consideration. I am glad you realize that position doesn't make sense :p.

    Er...

    Wat.

    Are you saying Civ 4 didn't have stacks of doom ^_^?
     
  5. Chibisuke

    Chibisuke Warlord

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    No sorry, you are reading and interpreting something into my statement which was simply not said. But if you want to keep doing that then you can argue with yourself in that manner.
     
  6. rezaf

    rezaf Warlord

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    Zuizgond likes this.
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    necro thread... with wisdom being both ways have their benefits
     
  8. DutchJob

    DutchJob Prince

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    Thanks for the link Rezaf.

    So Shafer starts at Paradox. Oh my, he could perhaps finish At the Gates first?
     
  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I was really looking forward to At the Gates honestly, it looked like a really cool concept for a game and I wanted to play it, but now I feel like that was a fool's hope, to quote Gandalf.
     
  10. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    The full quote is worth considering:-

     
  11. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I like his idea of stacks suffering attrition depending on their size. instead of eliminating stacks and forcing the player to use the 1upt model, it gives the player more choices as to how much attrition they are willing to suffer.
     
  12. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    Something as simple as "-X% damage done and +X% damage received for each unit beyond the first" might work. Simple, quick, and not as limiting as 1upt.
     
  13. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    If you want to make the AI even worse, yeah.
     
  14. Kissamies

    Kissamies Prince

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    Some kind of attrition system, effectiveness penalties and maintenance cost increases when stacked too high is exactly the kind of thing I suggested when reacting to 1UPT in CiV. Then there would be a few techs in the tree that increase the stack limit, better technology being able to supply larger armies and all that... Maybe I should have been the lead designer.

    But on the title, 1UPT has pretty much killed the franchise for me personally. I still don't have 6. I'm not even sure if I'll get the complete edition from the bargain bin later. It's pretty sad considering how Civilization used to be must-buy for me.
     
    Roald Amundsen and ZubieMaster like this.
  15. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    Imho, 1upt is an unrealistic abstraction to turn military warfare into "interesting gameplay" ... 1upt as used in most games is nonsense ... you can have (WW2 or modern) infantry, tanks, assaultguns, artillerie, anti-tank-guns, anti-aircraft close to each other compared to the distance they can shoot (1 km - 15 km) ... its called combined arms. Combat in strategy games like Hearts of Iron 2 is much more realistic than in (tactical) games like Civ or Panzer General.

    In WW2 the German Wehrmacht used the new concept of Panzerdivisions (with combat air support by the Luftwaffe) to defeat the superior French, British, Dutch and Belgian forces in 1940 ... see the structure of a Panzerdivision below ... in terms of Civ modern divisions are simply stacks ...

    If you want to have a tactical game with separat unit types, hex size should be maybe 100 meters :
    Infantery and machineguns would have range 5-10 hexes, tanks would shoot 10-20 hexes wide, artillery 50-150 hexes ...

    Spoiler :


    (Note : When you open the picture in a separate window, you can enlarge it to read the descriptions.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_division
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  16. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    You mean how in Civ 6 you can merge units into corps and armies, which are unlocked by techs, only slightly more effective, and have higher maintenance costs? something like that?
    maybe you should start by actually playing the game
     
  17. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    You're right. It's totally unrealistic compared to my 2000BC stackable CivIV warrior taking 400 years to walk from Boston to Atlanta.

    In this whole (-ly stupid at this point) "discussion" the viewpoint the opinion that gets overshadowed is that they're both equally valid approaches to take.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  18. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    That has nothing to do with stacking vs. 1upt. That's game design.

    The problem is the scaling : Civ games are global strategy games so a single tile represents hundreds of km² ... in that scale you use rather divisions (XX), corps (XXX) or armies (XXXX) but not single battallions (II).
    e.g. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Joint_Military_Symbology#Unit_sizes
     
  19. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    The biggest problem with 1UPT is late game warfare being a chore and AI handling it.
    Id preffer a return to MUPT or at least some way to truly streamline 1UPT but I don't think it is such a huge problem. I love Civ5 despite this and my problem with Civ6 is not just with 1UPT.
     
  20. Slayan

    Slayan Warlord

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    I for one love the 1UPT vs the stacks of death, it doesn't take any strategy to move the stack of 30 units around and stomp stuff
     
    Manifold likes this.
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