Has anyone EVER made a defensive pact?

[ColinTH]

Bring back the Alliance as was in previous civs!

 

[The_Quasar]

I have seen many AI Pacts over the months since the game came out, possibly about 20% of my games. Only way to tell, usually, is to look in the diplo pulldown, and 2 or more civs will have Defensive Pact against them.

 

[Helmling]

It's a cool aspect of diplo, and it adds much-needed depth to the game, with only one drawback: THE AI NEVER MAKES THEM.

Is there an XML where I can raise the AI's flavor for Defensive Pacts?

Yes, but not often.

I think you have to cultivate long-standing friendships first, which is something I've stopped doing.

But I remember one time when I had a sudden DoW from an AI player, I tucked my tail between my legs like a coward and reloaded a game a few turns back. I signed a Defensive Pact with a neighbor and lo-and-behold, the other AI didn't declare war on me after all.

Of course, in another game, I pulled the same stunt and the offending AI went to war anyway, so it's deterrent value is not absolute.

 

[Helmling]

i just would like to see a WWI situation of rival alliances forming and eventually fighting each other in a huge world war that really challenges the leaders into leading a total war economy and then there could be like a great big diplomatic meeting of the victors to shape the post-war world where you can go either punish and limit the victors (WWI) or rebuild them (and maybe have a long cold war lol) (WWII) it might be better to do a scenario but it would be amazing if that could happen in a regular game

Yeah, adding the "Make Peace with..." option to the diplomacy screen is a step in the right direction, but it would be nice if you could include other terms for other players (AI or in MP) through the diplomacy screen.

 

[jbevermore]

I use them quite often, and to good effect. Agreed that the "alliances" system could be improved, but a better diplomacy management screen would be required for that.

Frankly I still think pacts of secrecy were a good concept if poorly implemented. I'd love to see defensive alliances targeted against a specific Civ rather then against all enemies.

 

[JoeBas]

It's a cool aspect of diplo, and it adds much-needed depth to the game, with only one drawback: THE AI NEVER MAKES THEM.

Is there an XML where I can raise the AI's flavor for Defensive Pacts?

Yup, just finished a game as France, playing with Hukkak's civ pack.

Sharing a continent with Dutch, India, and Mughal.

Dutch at the north of the continent, went OCC/Cultural, ignored.

Ghandi and Mughal started spamming settlements, so I went down and settled their way, pissing them off.

Mughal declared war, I eliminated his army and started taking his cities. Overextended myself along the way, Ghandi declared on my backside, I pulled back my forces to my original cities and let him have my Mughal conquests, which were still so fresh they were in revolt/anarchy and not particularly useful anyway (population halved when I took them, then halved again when he took them).

Soon made peace with Ghandi, some time later he saw that Mughal was still cripped, and asked if I wanted in in devastating him. I agreed (his best cities were still ripe for the picking and closest to me), and SO, we shall GO to WAR against the Mughal, ripped him open, left him in tatters, with one useless tundra city. I declared peace after XP farming him until Ghandi was closing in on the last city, as I didn't want the warmonger penalty, and oddly enough Ghandi did as well, leaving him his last useless tundra city to shake his fist in rage for the rest of the game.

And so effectively, Ghandi and I were sharing the continent, about 20 cities each. I proposed a DoF, which he agreed to, and then HE proposed a defensive pact, which I agreed to.

We then kept a DoF and Defensive pact for the last 300+ years of the game, with someone I HAD BEEN TO WAR WITH, until I launched my spaceship. Whenever he asked for a declaration, I was in - who cares, whoever we were "declaring" against was across the ocean somewhere and no threat. I did a couple of proxy unit donations to my CS allies over there to keep them alive and make it look like I was helping, but that's about it.

 

[JWAT44]

Defensive pacts have two main issues that I can see.
1. Being forced to war a civ you have a pact with because they attacked another civ you have a pact with.
2. Having to keep track of every war to make sure none of your pacts have expired because the other party declared war and having to re-sign EVERY pact if you declare war or if you or an ally are declared on.

As I see it the solutions are:
1. If two civs you have pacts with go to war you aren't dragged in (unless you manually declare)
2. Pacts aren't automatically cancelled if either party declares war, however the party that didn't declare isn't automatically dragged in (although if the recipient of the declaration has a defensive pact then all parties on both sides will get drawn in).

agreed

 

[seasnake]

Sure, if you're strong, have a good friend a ways from your borders it happens quite often.

Recently Catherine and I kept making and renewing said pacts. We were on two different sides of the world and buddies. I probably helped that I was Kamehameha, I think Catherine has a thing for a muscle man in a loin cloth.

 

[roguepro92]

make pact with everyone.
if someone attacks you, everyone is in the war agianst them < works as deterrent.

if two people you have DP with goes to war, it has no negative impact on/for you.

 

[Koncept]

I made one... once. I was playing on small continents and somehow got isolated. When I finally discovered everybody else, I found that they were sharing a landmass the size of mine. I pretty much had double the tech of anyone else I bided my time, researched a bunch of military tech and made an unnecessarily huge army and made a DP with the major power over there. Proceded to wipe out all the minors with help (thanks, Mongolia) and eventually Mongolia itself(you didn't see this coming? you thought we were friends? come on!)

 

[Randall Turner]

if two people you have DP with goes to war, it has no negative impact on/for you.

Unless you've a DOF with the aggressor, then it's a MAJOR hit, enough in and of itself to put you into "Warmonger" status!

Happened to me. Once.

 

[King Patrick]

I made a few defensive pacts with Persia in a game where I was trying to dissuade somebody else from attacking me, I forget who. Pretty sure I've never had an AI civ approach me requesting one, though.

 

[jagdtigerciv]

I have had a few, they never really resulted in anything though. I don't find it difficult to get one, if you have a DoF with them so a good amount of time, and have few red modifiers, you've got it.

I only do them, to be honest, to increase relations. Almost like a tier 2 declaration of friendship. Whether or not they actually improve relations in the XML, I do not know.

 

[Alex_K]

I made a defensive pact with the Aztecs (the bad boys of the other continent that no one likes, basically forced into liking me as no one likes the superpower) in the hopes that this would get me into a war with the Germans (the only culture beating me on tech) and allow me to grab their coastal cities with wonders. Hasn't worked so far.

I don't really want to start a war and risk ALL of them attacking me at once.

 

[TopGearFanatic]

I remember a long time ago I saw Catherine make a Defensive Pact with someone, but I don't remember who. I can occasionally make a Defensive Pact, but only if we're very good friends.

 

[jbevermore]

I remember a long time ago I saw Catherine make a Defensive Pact with someone, but I don't remember who. I can occasionally make a Defensive Pact, but only if we're very good friends.

See, that's part of the problem. It's not about being friends, it's about having mutual military interests.

My favorite defensive pact to make is with the other major military power on the map (assuming I'm not going conquering). Fastest way to ensure no one will screw with you.

 

[eric_]

I had an ongoing one with Mongolia during my only cultural victory. I was well-isolated by a mountain chain and isthmus on my eastern border, and Mongolia's western-most border was many hexes east of that natural barrier. I signed a Defensive Pact with them to ensure that anyone attacking me by land had to deal with their massive territory and decent army before I had to worry about them. Didn't see a single moment of armed conflict the whole game even though I never upgraded my 6-unit army beyond swordsmen and crossbows. I won on the last turn of the game (standard speed, continents, prince).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1. Being forced to war a civ you have a pact with because they attacked another civ you have a pact with.

This isn't the problem. The problem is the face-palm idiocy of you taking a significant demerit for declaring on a friend in this situation...as if you were the aggressor. That should never, ever happen in DP situations; the aggressor AI knew the consequences of the DoW (it at least factored the powers of its target, meaning you were considered). Crap like this breaks immersion, breaks logic, and winds up in frustrating conclusions that ruin an otherwise viable feature.

Short term auto-expire deals are a longstanding civ V problem; at least some of these agreements should be auto-renewed unless a side opts out!

 

[jbevermore]

This isn't the problem. The problem is the face-palm idiocy of you taking a significant demerit for declaring on a friend in this situation...as if you were the aggressor. That should never, ever happen in DP situations; the aggressor AI knew the consequences of the DoW (it at least factored the powers of its target, meaning you were considered). Crap like this breaks immersion, breaks logic, and winds up in frustrating conclusions that ruin an otherwise viable feature.

Short term auto-expire deals are a longstanding civ V problem; at least some of these agreements should be auto-renewed unless a side opts out!

I suppose if I was trying to play devils advocate I'd say they were pissed that you decided to fight them anyway....but yeah. This shouldn't happen. During the war sure, but once it's over it should roll over to "been to war, but does not hold a grudge".

 

[G0liath]

I recently found and succeeded in using Defensive Pacts in my most recent games.

Continents map, Kings Difficulty.

Me, Aztecs, Washington, Elizabeth, Egypt, Hiawatha, Oda, Ghengis all on the same initial continent.

It didn't take long for the DoF's and DoW's to begin, with Oda and Egypt repeatedly asking for DoF's and the Aztecs DoW. After taking the Aztec's Cap. I make peace. I accepted the DoF's as the flavors of this particular game had every leader especially friendly and I decided that a diplomatic vic was in the works.

A little later Hiawatha begins his warmongering, invading Japan, finishing off the Aztecs, and DoW America and Ghengis. He becomes my neighbor and I want him to go, but I do not want the diplo. penalty for declaring as I am hoping for a diplo win, so what do I do?

I asked for and received DPacts with Egypt and Japan. Then, went to Hiawatha and bribed him to DoW Japan. Not only did I avoid the diplo hit for declaring, but I had a 3 on 1 war against my warmongering neighbor. After taking his two biggest cities Hiawatha came begging for peace, even offering another city as tribute.

I thought it a very useful way to avoid those obnoxious warmongering tags, and it only requires 1 pact to work, so you can side step the risk of having two pact members declaring on each other.