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Has production scaling gotten worse?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Cao Cao Mengde, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. Cao Cao Mengde

    Cao Cao Mengde Warlord

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    What the title says.

    It really feels like it's taking ages to build ANYTHING now. I usually play on standard speed, standard size maps. Units are averaging at 9-10 turns, wonders- forget about it- new districts? You're funny. Does this have to do with other civs beelining new eras and throwing all the production out of whack?

    Combined with the longer turn times, the game is becoming completely untenable to play on anything other than online speed, and I've never enjoyed that, to be honest. And that's not even mentioning the overlap nerf which makes the modern era impossibly slow!

    So is it just me? Am I missing something?

    (Incidentally, as a side note, do mods effect achievements or not? Cause I really want to enjoy this game, but it's becoming a serious...SERIOUS, for lack of a better word, slog!)
     
    Piruparka likes this.
  2. AtlantisAuthor

    AtlantisAuthor Chieftain

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    I've come back to try playing as Australia, but I just can't stay interested even with some mods in place like "Starting Builder/Scout". Everything does indeed take seemingly FOREVER...and I'm playing at ONLINE speed. And when I get a halfway decent start only to see a half-dozen barbarians come to burn all my improvements down because I simply can't do everything I want to and also build a military, I kind of lose interest then and there. Something just feels off about this game's early turns compared to Civ V; it's like trying to race with a ball and chain attached to each leg.

    Also, the AI is still a hot mess. Two turns after I meet other Civs they already have an "Unfriendly" icon under their pictures. I don't even worry about diplomacy or trade at this point, and those were two things that were crucial to Civ V. When I think that Firaxis probably won't even attempt to address this until the first major expansion (just guessing, but probably at least late summer or fall), I can see myself taking another few months away from Civ VI for lack of interest.
     
    WorldWarIV and gettingfat like this.
  3. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    Civs get 'first impressions' immediately, and it's unclear what shapes these (I.e. are they random, are they related to the type of unit they meet, etc.). I might be imagining it as well, but I feel like unless you do immediate 'friendly' moves (i.e. send a delegation or invite them to your city or whatever) they are more likely to be unfriendly - so you have to make moves on meeting to try and get off on the right foot.

    Having said that, trading with them is one of the ways to make them friendly (especially right off the bat). Just doing a trade with them, or sending a trade route to them, gives a positive modifier.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  4. Jungle Rhino

    Jungle Rhino Chieftain

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    I think the major problem is just how damn clunky the game UI is and the amount of time you spend waiting every turn. Some thoughts:

    1. The diplomacy screens really distract - especially how it loads up a leader for their little speil - then it loads into another screen explaining the game mechanic reason for the speil. This just wastes time.
    2. No Build Queue - Good lord how could this have happened
    3. Having to click through the annoying buttons to set your production
    4. Having to click through the annoying buttons to check and assign workers to tiles
    5. The trade route system - having to periodically reassign routes
    6. Religious units - seriously as a game system it is just a giant time sync
    7. No way to queue orders - if you could shift + click a tile to issue multiple orders like move and then build an improvement or move + fortify it would drastically accelerate the game

    The game is getting better but it is still buried under the weight of it's incredibly clunky interface. They need to do a whole redesign pass over minimising time/delay/clicks. Unfortunately that is relatively expensive and won't drive additional revenue so doubtful it will ever happen unless the product lead is incredibly passionate about the game and can sneak the dev hours past his management...
     
  5. AtlantisAuthor

    AtlantisAuthor Chieftain

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    @Jungle_Rhino,

    There are now mods on the Steam Workshop that greatly help the UI (getting rid of those annoying Diplomacy screens), and at least one that adds a build queue for each city. I definitely suggest you give them a try. Those two things alone help a lot; I just wish these weren't problems the game's users are the ones having to fix.
     
  6. Cao Cao Mengde

    Cao Cao Mengde Warlord

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    So what would help with dealing with the obnoxious production? Or is it really just me?

    And do mods affect achievements? :O
     
  7. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    Honestly, I feel production times haven't changed at all since the first patch.

    It may sound like ISP support, but anyway
    • Have you been using the production policies? My units only take that long if I'm not using their respective card (Settlers are exceptions, though I feel it's balanced given how impactful a new city is).
    • DIstrict cost only rise with respect to your own tech/civic advancement. Try beelining more for really important techs, instead of only following eurekas (though those really are damn awesome, but sometimes it's better not to wait for them) or only going for lower research time
    • Grow your cities more, past 4 pop. Granaries are cheap, anyway.
    • Have you been using internal trade routes? 4 of them can usually give 8~10 cogs per turn for really important things (like wonders).
    • Chop, chop, chop everything the you don't need. Rainforest? Chop. Woods on hills without river? Chop. Stone on hill? Chop.
    Sometimes it's not about building what you want, it's building what you need. If barbarians come knock at your door, you need more units, even though that Granary or district seems lovely to have right now. Having a game that lets you only build what you want isn't fun, because then there's no challenge. And if barbs are your only concern, there's an option for disabling barbs in the Advanced Setup.

    If you want an AI to have a good relationship with you, then send a delegation at the very least from the get-go. I'm not going to be your friend if you don't put in any effort for that, y'know. I usually have neutral faces around the end-game even though I did a fair bit of warmongering in the Classical Era, by sending delegations, offering favorable trade deals (ask for Open Borders for measly 100 gold and you get a good modifier for that), sending trade routes and fulfilling the acceptable agendas (especially hidden ones like Money Grubber or Cultured).

    And yeah, an AI will backstab you if you don't leave some reserves at home, and you'd probably do the same if they left their home defenseless (at least in the Ancient/Classical Era, anyway).
     
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  8. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    I don't feel like production times are that long by themselves. I was used to playing with mods, but I've disabled all except a few quality of life mods (map generation and AI bonus rebalance so that they get less at the start of the game and more later on), and now I'm playing on epic, and really, I don't see the problem when a district on epic takes 30 turns in any of my developed cities (it'd equal 10 turns on online, which sounds fine to me). I would prefer them a bit shorter than 30 turns - preferably about 20, and that's exactly the amount of time needed on normal. Which means that from my next game on, I'm using the 8 Ages of Pace mod again to slow down technologies in the later eras and be able to play normal game speed without racing through the later eras. In my opinion, that's the only truly big problem this game still has. If you somewhat know how to play this game, you get to the Industrial Era by 1100 AD or even earlier.

    I just want to know what the problem is with 3, 5, 6, 7.

    3: You click a city. You click the production button. You click the item you want to build. How is that any different from other civ games? At worst you have to do some scrolling.
    5: So you want to start a trade route, and have it forever go from and to the same city? Even if there's a lot of roads that need building and even if there's I-don't-know-how-many better trade route options out there because the original destination city just isn't well developed?
    6: You're not forced to go religion, but even if you do, it's just a war, only with other units. I don't see how that's a giant time sink any more than warfare. Except for the part where warfare can be forced upon you, while religious warfare cannot (you could argue it can be if you found a religion, but you don't lose the game by a religion "conquering" you if they don't conquer all others too, and that's not a problem on big maps at least).
    7: So I shift-click my builder to that one tile over there. Is he gonna build a farm now? Or a Collosal Head? Or an Outback Station? What's he gonna build? Or I shift-click a military unit to a tile. Should it end turn? Fortify? Just alert? Pillage that trade route? Seriously, something like that is never going to work - it's also not been in earlier civ games, by the way, though you make it sound like it has been (sure, you had automated improvements, but that was just the number one way to ruin your empire).
     
    Victoria likes this.
  9. Cao Cao Mengde

    Cao Cao Mengde Warlord

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    Yeah, I'm doing all of that, but it just feels so LONG. Maybe the problem is my own lack of patience, ha ha ha. In the early game it's fine, but in the mid to late game, combined with the exceptionally long turn times and the massively nerfed factories, I just can't bear with it any longer!

    But I don't know. I'm thinking of starting a "what am I doing wrong" thread if only to see which parts are genuine game flaws, and which parts are me screwing up! Should be enlightening :D.

    Also, I know I'm repeating myself, but do mods affect achievements!??
     
  10. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    It may be more constructive, because it may attract the attention of more experienced players willing to share. I'm by no means the most experienced person around (being curbstomped in the GotM 07 before the patch twice).

    Maybe it's just an effect from previous Civs. I felt it was quite slow compared to Civ 5, but now I enjoy the fact I have to specialize more my empire in a certain direction. Back then, I could simply build and buy almost every building in the lKing-Emperor levels and still attain a good finishing time.
     
  11. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    Oops. I actually inteded to say something about the mods:

    Mods don't affect achievements. However, the "win a regular game" achievements don't work if you're playing with another ruleset than standard.
     
  12. Tacgnol

    Tacgnol Warlord

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    A lot of the time, yeah, I do. I'll use some of my trade routes to boost expansion cities, and I'll check for any major changes in yields every once in a while, but there are typically several trade routes from my capital and core cities to the highest yield cities that I maintain for most of the game.

    The issue isn't even so much having to look at the screen, which is annoying as well late game on large maps as it lags, but with having to scroll through the entire list to figure out which trade route is missing or which is the best. There definitely should be a prompt explicitly saying which trade route just ended, and selecting the previous trade route as the default option, that alone would mostly resolve the problem.

    With 3 units. Is the issue. One of which can only defend, and one of which isn't really worth it. So effectively, with 1 unit.

    Also, the City-State screen. There is still no way to close the city-state screen without going back to the city-states menu and closing that. Which is really annoying, especially when you bring the screen up by clicking on a city-state on the map.
     
  13. Piruparka

    Piruparka Prince

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    I, too, think that district costs are to high. Trade route nerf of the previous patch has only made things worse, since now I will have lesser trade routes that I can use to boost my cities. I really hope they'll slightly adjust district costs. Other costs seem fine though.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I see no change in production and have played 7 deity games now.

    The harbor nerf has not phased me... just looking at my correct game in turn 84 I have 8 cities and a lot of them have harbor CZ triangles and I am playing Ghandi, not Vicky. The money these give has not been diminished, just the trade routes which having too many is a bit of a pain anyway and a bit OTT.

    Last game I remember in about turn 150 I settled a new city and a CZ would take 180 turns to build. I then bought a builder to chop and pushed 2 trade routes to the city and about 5 turns later it had a CZ... That's how you deal with new cities late unless they are a lux city where you just settle on a lux and leave it pushing prod for a monument. It will not grow and is a cheap entertainment center.

    The screens can be a pain, the CS one gets me a bit but I never really used build queues.

    To me Civ V is becoming unplayable now because it is so formulaic. You can just bang things in a queue and click next next next. I guess thats what a person who just wants to use military units wants and to be fair it should be there for them. To me Civ 6 has quite important build decisions all the time and I am always changing my mind and am lazy so if I use a build queue I would forget.

    You do need a fair CPU/Graphics card or the turns get a pain but you can turn things off to make it better. I never feel like the turns take too long to process, but turns can take a while for me to process if I have like 20 cities which is a domination / science victory issue.
     
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  15. Haggbart

    Haggbart King

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    I'm not really seeing the problem with production times. Sure it takes longer to build stuff with non-stackable IS-bonuses and one trade route pr city, but it was somewhat meaningless to plow through late game wonders in 5-8 turns. You can still use multiple TRs in new cities to get districts up and running (should at least be used to give it coomercial hub or harbor and extra TR).

    Mainly it makes the game a bit harder because the AI wouldn't use the multiple IS-bonuses and trade routes as much as the human players. So for me it'a a nice change.
     
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  16. Calyxx

    Calyxx Warlord

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    I think production times are too slow compared to tech/civic costs - either production needs to be faster or technological advancement slower. Currently the first few eras just fly by before you have a chance to do much of anything.

    @Victoria - is your Ghandi game normal speed? I can barely even conceive of having 8 cities, many with two districts, by turn 80. How did you accomplish this? (I generally play on Emperor, normal speed)
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @calyx attached is the game mentioned, normal speed... turn 87.. my bad.Also I have no DLC's so I hope it loads (refuse to buy them until AI fixed a bit better) Its not too hard, you just get them archers out in numbers. Its more about having a civ close enough. Killed Germany and greece had walls up but they were still weak enough for archers, settled a peace deal as I had their capital that included another city

    The advantage with Ghandi as well as war weariness is you can keep momentum up with elephants

    I have not been a key lover of war in Civ because it is fairly easy and formulaic and have played it since the patch in the hope the AI was better. Alas, apart from a few archers its not got its IQ past 80 yet.
     

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  18. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    You can have 8 cities by turn 80 in normal speed without conquering too (provided there's enough space). Just build Settlers non-stop from every city (capital included).

    You may lag behind a bit in the early game, but by mid game the combined yields will overcome the AI. It's best if you start isolated, because then there's plenty of space and you don't face the threat of an invasion.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Yep, I have got 10 cities up manually by tirn 100 but you do not build much else, military does it better which is sad in a way.
     
  20. Calyxx

    Calyxx Warlord

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    Yeah, I have no problem having 8-12 cities by turn 100 or sometimes earlier, either with or without conquest. But those cities are poorly developed, with only 1-2 districts total across my entire empire. I'm just not sure where the production would come from to get settlers + districts + military.

    @Victoria - thanks for the save file! I'll take a look at it later tonight when I get home from work.
     

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