Hating Diety

[Park Hyun]

Hi, old-time Civ player here (since III). I see a lot of players here saying they play on Diety like that's to be expected, and complaining about how easy the game is, and I'd like to ask you a simple question:

Are you crazy?

Diety is terrible. Yes, I can win Immortal, and after a while even stop thinking about it and cruise to victory. But when I play Diety, this is what happens in every game: I explore the map and find myself next to Australia. By the time I make four units, Curtin has three cities, is in the late classical era, declares a surprise war against me, I go into a dark age, and he takes my city with a single galley. ONE GALLEY.

That's a challenge, I suppose, in the way that watching the Star Wars Christmas Special is a challenge. In the way that stubbing your toe on a rusty heroin needle is a challenge. In the way that finding out your girlfriend likes Nickelback is a challenge.

Diety isn't a fun mode. You have to focus maniacally on early war to maybe survive the "surprise" war your neighbors will immediately launch upon you. It's not "harder" in the sense that it tests your knowledge of the game, but rather in a random "survive depending on your spawn location" sense. To make the game stay interesting, I play huge maps with lots of leaders on Epic or Marathon. I don't play diety because diety is an exercise in frustration, and that's not what games are for.

 

[japanesesamurai]

That’s the point of deity! Usually you gotta be on your toes until you research steel. It is the threat up until steel that is satisfying. If you gamble too much you might find yourself in a tricky position. The first two era’s can be brutal though, indeed! Sometimes you just gotta forfeit and except a defeat!
Although usually the barbarians are the biggest threat.
With that being said, you can get knocked out on turn 25 on emperor too.
I don’t see much difference between immortal and deity during the early game

 

[RealHuhn]

Maybe play more than 50 turns and realize that the game is a lot more enjoyable after the early game because the AI is actually half decent at building up science and culture? At least up to Renaissance era. Immortal is just pure boredom in comparison.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Diety is terrible. Yes, I can win Immortal, and after a while even stop thinking about it and cruise to victory. But when I play Diety, this is what happens in every game: I explore the map and find myself next to Australia. By the time I make four units, Curtin has three cities, is in the late classical era, declares a surprise war against me, I go into a dark age, and he takes my city with a single galley. ONE GALLEY.

Really, that particular scenario happens to you every time?
Sorry, but I just don't believe you here.
Exaggerating that much won't help your cause.

 

[Park Hyun]

Really, that particular scenario happens to you every time?
Sorry, but I just don't believe you here.
Exaggerating that much won't help your cause.

I may be exaggerating just a teeny, tiny amount here. There does seem to be a theme of getting thwacked by Australia early on when I play Diety games, though.

I've been doing fine in Immortal and am frankly a bit bored with it. I just can't seem to get past the crazy imbalance that Diety throws at you in the early game, and it doesn't seem fun. This rant was inspired by a game this morning when Curtin took my city with a single galley in turn 60.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Diety isn't a fun mode. You have to focus maniacally on early war to maybe survive the "surprise" war your neighbors will immediately launch upon you. It's not "harder" in the sense that it tests your knowledge of the game, but rather in a random "survive depending on your spawn location" sense. To make the game stay interesting, I play huge maps with lots of leaders on Epic or Marathon. I don't play diety because diety is an exercise in frustration, and that's not what games are for.

That's not necessarily how you need to play it though.

Some pointers to get you started:
- Send a delegation to your neighbours on the same turn that you meet them (if you do it later, they will usually decline and that hurts you a lot potentially).
That will significantly lower the chance of war, and is perhaps one of the most important things that you have to do.
- Make sure that you are not too low on overall combat strength, and if you have a hard-to-defend location (open flatland) with an agressive neighbour or someone you suspect is going to surprise war you, start researching archery early.
- Related to that, consider going for a Slinger on your first turn, and try to get the eureka to Archery from a nearby barb. Getting to archery fast helps you not only defend, but possibly killing off your neighbour in return if you choose that route. You don't need the Slinger first every time, but when in the open and with a neighbour nearby, it can be a safer choice that Scout first.
- If any nearby civ in the ancient era turns "green with a smiley face", befriend them 9/10 times (exceptions only if you are extremely limited in settling space or plan to early war anyway).
- Get your second city up asap (usually after your first slinger/scout).
Two cities for producing units are better than 1, simple as that.
Also consider getting Agoge early on if you sense that war is near, 50% production towards units helps a lot.
- Keep your warrior and/or scout/slinger at a good tactical point between you and your neighbour.
If you see more than 1 military unit heading your way, you have to assume that you need to prepare for war.
Getting that information a few turns earlier by scouting your neighbour is crucial.

Finally, you just have to accept that some games are simply unwinnable.
Example: Starting squeezed in between two very aggressive neighbours.
My first deity game was like that - started as Pedro right between Suleiman and Chandragupta.
Even with several reloads, I could not prevent at least one of them from declaring a surprise war on me within 15 turns, and that's just something I'd have to live with.

 

[japanesesamurai]

They took it with a boat because it was an easy target. AI will ignore fortified cities and aim for cities they have a chance capturing. Ignoring loyalty. If on turn 60 they penetraded a city defense with a single galley, it means your strongest melee unit was very weak (warrior without upgrades?)

That's not necessarily how you need to play it though.

Some pointers to get you started:
- Send a delegation to your neighbours on the same turn that you meet them
That will significantly lower the chance of war, and is perhaps one of the most important things that you have to do.
It also gives you some extra combat strength due to the diplomatic visibility, as long as you don't accept their delegation in return.
- Make sure that you are not too low on overall combat strength, and if you have a hard-to-defend location (open flatland) with an agressive neighbour or someone you suspect is going to surprise war you, start researching archery early.
- Related to that, consider going for a Slinger on your first turn, and try to get the eureka to Archery from a nearby barb. Getting to archery fast helps you not only defend, but possibly killing off your neighbour in return if you choose that route. You don't need the Slinger first every time, but when in the open and with a neighbour nearby, it can be a safer choice that Scout first.
- If any nearby civ in the ancient era turns "green with a smiley face", befriend them 9/10 times (exceptions only if you are extremely limited in settling space or plan to early war anyway).
- Get your second city up asap (usually after your first slinger/scout).
Two cities for producing units are better than 1, simple as that.
Also consider getting Agoge early on if you sense that war is near, 50% production towards units helps a lot.
- Keep your warrior and/or scout/slinger at a good tactical point between you and your neighbour.
If you see more than 1 military unit heading your way, you have to assume that you need to prepare for war.
Getting that information a few turns earlier by scouting your neighbour is crucial.

Finally, you just have to accept that some games are simply unwinnable.
Example: Starting squeezed in between two very aggressive neighbours.
My first deity game was like that - started as Pedro right between Suleiman and Chandragupta.
Even with several reloads, I could not prevent at least one of them from declaring a surprise war on me within 15 turns, and that's just something I'd have to live with.

the delegation will get cancelled once war breaks out. So the extra combat strength from visibilty isn’t active during the war

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I've been doing fine in Immortal and am frankly a bit bored with it. I just can't seem to get past the crazy imbalance that Diety throws at you in the early game, and it doesn't seem fun. This rant was inspired by a game this morning when Curtin took my city with a single galley in turn 60.

Is this Standard speed?
Because if you lost your city at turn 60, you most likely messed up your early game somewhere.
What you need to be vary of are attacks that come by roughly turn 15 to 30 (standard speed), because that's when you are at your absolute weakest.
That's when you had time to only train one unit (Slinger first in my example) and are working on/just finished your first settler.

Btw, there is no shame in gold-buying a warrior over a worker.
The way the AI behaves is that it will (when it decides to surprise war) heavily weigh in whether or not you are weak army value wise.
I don't know where the exact breakpoint is, but I personally operate with the rule "never be below 1/4 to 1/3 of your neighbours army value".
As long as you watch for their army value, you know when you need to start getting some units.
The Deity AI usually has about 80-100 army value very early on, meaning that your single warrior + slinger/scout will just barely keep you safe for a short while (but not necessarily always).
If you do see the AI getting up to 150, then 200 army value etc., you need to get units asap, as there is a very high chance a surprise war is coming.

Hope some of this helps!

the delegation will get cancelled once war breaks out. So the extra combat strength from visibilty isn’t active during the war

Cheers, this goes into the category "trivial things that are actually useful, which I didn't actually know but assumed to be true".
Thanks!

 

[japanesesamurai]

Cheers, this goes into the category "trivial things that are actually useful, which I didn't actually know but assumed to be true".
Thanks!

Ha ha yes. You can start accepting delegations. I refused them too for a long time. “No way they’d get +3 combat strength”

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Ha ha yes. You can start accepting delegations. I refused them too for a long time. “No way they’d get +3 combat strength”

Yeah that's the useful part of your information right there.
I'd actually like most friendships early on, but declined everything just for that extra edge in case of war.

 

[hhhhhh]

I won't call early game of deity games easy. And map selection is another factor. If you are new to deity, try Lakes. It's not as crowded so it's easier to survive the early games.

Also I think one way to stop AI from declaring war on you is to make sure they cannot find your capital. They put a high value on capitals and your initial troops are too little to stop them from declaring war. (It's not about defending... once they declare war even if you can defend you still lose a lot of opportunities for peaceful development.)

 

[Park Hyun]

Just tried it with Biz - they're OP, right? Met Netherlands, they immediately declared war, I survived. Turn 60, all Great Prophets were gone. Netherlands snuck a missionary in and converted my capital right after we declared peace, so I couldn't burn that heretic son of a...
NOOOOPE. Just no. Someone can develop an actually good AI rather than make the game impossible.

That's not necessarily how you need to play it though.

Some pointers to get you started:
- Send a delegation to your neighbours on the same turn that you meet them (if you do it later, they will usually decline and that hurts you a lot potentially).
That will significantly lower the chance of war, and is perhaps one of the most important things that you have to do.
- Make sure that you are not too low on overall combat strength, and if you have a hard-to-defend location (open flatland) with an agressive neighbour or someone you suspect is going to surprise war you, start researching archery early.
- Related to that, consider going for a Slinger on your first turn, and try to get the eureka to Archery from a nearby barb. Getting to archery fast helps you not only defend, but possibly killing off your neighbour in return if you choose that route. You don't need the Slinger first every time, but when in the open and with a neighbour nearby, it can be a safer choice that Scout first.
- If any nearby civ in the ancient era turns "green with a smiley face", befriend them 9/10 times (exceptions only if you are extremely limited in settling space or plan to early war anyway).
- Get your second city up asap (usually after your first slinger/scout).
Two cities for producing units are better than 1, simple as that.
Also consider getting Agoge early on if you sense that war is near, 50% production towards units helps a lot.
- Keep your warrior and/or scout/slinger at a good tactical point between you and your neighbour.
If you see more than 1 military unit heading your way, you have to assume that you need to prepare for war.
Getting that information a few turns earlier by scouting your neighbour is crucial.

Finally, you just have to accept that some games are simply unwinnable.
Example: Starting squeezed in between two very aggressive neighbours.
My first deity game was like that - started as Pedro right between Suleiman and Chandragupta.
Even with several reloads, I could not prevent at least one of them from declaring a surprise war on me within 15 turns, and that's just something I'd have to live with.

I do all of that, dude. I've been playing Civ for literally over a decade. Diety is like playing a racing game where instead of making the other drivers better, you start with a flat tire.

 

[Vargas1]

Ha ha yes. You can start accepting delegations. I refused them too for a long time. “No way they’d get +3 combat strength”

I also just learned this within the past week or two - has completely changed the way I play at diplomacy in the early game.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

I do all of that, dude. I've been playing Civ for literally over a decade. Diety is like playing a racing game where instead of making the other drivers better, you start with a flat tire.

Was only trying to give you some pointers there. If you do all that, I don't really get how you are consistently struggling on Deity as those measures should help secure you an early foothold so that you can start catching up.

 

[Socrates99]

The people who complain about deity being easy are looking at the long game where the human brain is better than the AI at cobbling together a coherent plan using the various mechanics than the AI is.

The early game is always rough and most players will add the caveat "if you survive the early game" when they say its easy.

You're playing on slower speeds which means it takes so much longer to get that early defensive army out. A turn 20 surprise war on marathon is completely different from one one standard or quick.

The flip side is that because epic and marathon are longer and more spaced out a human can build a bigger snowball earlier and the game actually becomes easier on slow speeds. You just need to survive long enough, that's all.

 

[bengalryan9]

Your point isn't completely off base - the main challenge from the AI in a deity level game comes in the form of an early rush. You're at such a disadvantage early on that they can be difficult/impossible to fight them off if they spawn too close, if the AI dogpiles on you, or if you get unlucky with barbarian spawns.

I also agree with you that some of these suggestions to avoid early war declarations don't work. If the AI wants to attack you early, they will, and a delegation or trade route isn't necessarily going to stop them. The only two neighbors you can guarantee won't come pick a fight with you are Wilfrid and Gilgamesh, so you need to make sure you're prepared to fend off anyone else.

Here are some tips from me for playing on deity, FWIW:
1) Take any advantage you can get early on. On lower difficulties I used to reroll if my start was TOO good - tons of mountains, triggering a ton of era score boosts or eurekas on the first turn, etc - but on Deity I learned quickly to throw that out the window. The AI starts with such a huge advantage you'll need any you can get. If you're just starting on deity, reroll until you find an amazing start. If you start out landlocked and surrounded, reroll.
2) Prioritize troops early on, especially when learning deity. Don't put down buildings or districts until you know you can defend yourself. Prioritize researching archery and then masonry. You may be hurting for culture and science early on, but your growth is going to be more exponential and you'll make up for it later.
3) Ignore religion. I wouldn't bother until I was comfortable with deity, and even then I usually only chase it if I have enough room that I know an attack isn't coming any time soon.
4) Don't be afraid to pick civs with early, strong advantages as you get used to playing on deity. Anything that helps get you through the early struggle and learn how to play is fair game. Civs like Sumeria (carts and ziggurats), Nubia (uber archers), America (+5 combat strength) and Rome (free monuments/culture and Legions) can give you the boost you might need to survive long enough to actually play the game. Canada's another good choice that a lot of people will hate on - play as Wilfrid and you're completely immune to war declarations (no surprise wars and the AI never uses cassus belli).
5) If you're really having trouble with early galleys... maybe don't settle on the coast? They won't be able to reach you then.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Just tried it with Biz - they're OP, right? Met Netherlands, they immediately declared war, I survived. Turn 60, all Great Prophets were gone. Netherlands snuck a missionary in and converted my capital right after we declared peace, so I couldn't burn that heretic son of a...
NOOOOPE. Just no. Someone can develop an actually good AI rather than make the game impossible.

I see, you mostly use this thread to be a negative Nancy here.

Nevermind, this guy doesn't look for any friendly help, he just wants to whine about the game. Should have known that earlier I guess.

 

[bengalryan9]

Just tried it with Biz - they're OP, right? Met Netherlands, they immediately declared war, I survived. Turn 60, all Great Prophets were gone. Netherlands snuck a missionary in and converted my capital right after we declared peace, so I couldn't burn that heretic son of a...
NOOOOPE. Just no. Someone can develop an actually good AI rather than make the game impossible.

If all great prophets are gone and you missed a religion, who cares if they converted your capital?

 

[Park Hyun]

I see, you mostly use this thread to be a negative Nancy here.

Nevermind, this guy doesn't look for any friendly help, he just wants to whine about the game. Should have known that earlier I guess.

Dude, I'm ranting. It's nothing personal. I'm just frustrated as hell.

 

[hhhhhh]

Just tried it with Biz - they're OP, right? Met Netherlands, they immediately declared war, I survived. Turn 60, all Great Prophets were gone. Netherlands snuck a missionary in and converted my capital right after we declared peace, so I couldn't burn that heretic son of a...
NOOOOPE. Just no. Someone can develop an actually good AI rather than make the game impossible.

If by Biz you mean Byzantine... they are not that OP and they need a lot of things align to pull off. Maybe try Australia? At least you won't be declared a surprise war from Australia in that case. But make sure you understand how appeal works.