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Hatty - Imm/Normal - Help with diplo/war targets

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dualmaster, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. dualmaster

    dualmaster Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    So I'm pretty new to playing immortal and the weakest part of my game is diplo. I was in this game that was going well and then things went bad. I'm including the initial save in case anyone wants to play it - it was a strong start and a lot of options for how to play (don't read the rest if this post if you don't want spoilers!):

    The start:
    Spoiler :


    It was tight quarters with Joao on one side and Hammurabi on the other. I found elephants and decided to just settle 4 cities and then go cataphant on someone. So in 75 BC I had a stack ready (also included the save from right before the DOW):

    Spoiler :


    It's seems a little late, but neither of my neighbors have longbows so there's a window of opportunity.

    My questions here are:
    1.) Who should be my target?
    2.) What can I do on the diplo front to avoid a dogpile/backstab?
    3.) Should I be double/triple whipping cities to launch the attack sooner?

    Hammy seemed like a poor target - boxed in, crappy land, not teching well so he'd be easy to steamroll later. Joao seems like a great target - no many troops, juicy land, and some great cities:

    Spoiler :




    I went for Joao and things went well. By 250 AD things were going well - I had taken 3 cities and he wasn't offering much resistance.

    Spoiler :


    At this point he wouldn't capitulate, but I could easily take another city or two to cap him. Then I could have turned on Hammy with cataphants (he still didn't have LBs). With a large chunk of good land and a vassal or two, this game probably would have been easy.

    Unforunately, the turn after 250 AD Joao peace vassals to Churchill and the following turn Pacal gets bribed into the war. (Maybe all TMIT's whining about passals is justified :lol:). So is there anything I could have done to avoid this? I'd appreciate any comments and suggestions.

    Saves attached - initial, right before starting the war, and the turn before Joao peace vassals.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Gone fishing for the summer
    :confused: Peace vassals is slightly different from what happened here, assuming you were still at war with Joao when Churchill (and Pacal) declared on you. An AI at war can try to become another civ's vassal, thereby dragging its new master in to defend the vassal against the aggressor. Part of this requires a power check between the master and the aggressor, since it amounts to a declaration of war (and counts as one for diplo purposes). Basically Joao was weak but not weak enough to capitulate to you (or had too much war success) and "bribed" Churchill into war with you. And then it looks like Churchill bribed Pacal into war with you. The easiest way to avoid this is to demand/request 1 gold from Churchill so that you're in the 10-turn forced peace window. Joao cannot vassal to Churchill in that circumstance since Churchill can't declare war on you. Alternatively if your relations with Churchill are good enough (can't remember if you need pleased or friendly) that Churchill can't declare war on you, you're safe as well.

    This was a big issue in warlords where the master would not take its diplo relations with the aggressor into consideration when it evaluated whether to take on a vassal and declare war. So you could have been friendly with Churchill and he'd still declare war on you to pick up Joao as a vassal. Thank goodness they fixed that "bug."
     
  3. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    Taking a look at your pre-war save.

    You do know that Hamtaro has the pyramids? That would be a nice reason to take him out. He's also fairly isolated.

    I would have considered Hamtaro first.

    Washington is another target because of his isolation. Noone is at pleased with him. He's not too far away really.

    Jao is really hard to isolate, he's pleased with 3 people and will have the tech to bribe someone in on you soon.

    If you wanted to get clever you could have spread confucianism to one of Jaos cities and used a spy to switch him to that religion, breaking his diplo bonuses with his friends. That would require some setup though and you would have to switch to that religion yourself.

    You're attack date is a little late, you should ideally attack around 500 BC with a catapult rush. I suppose on immortal it doesn't matter too much, but one of the advantages of attacking that early is the AI's don't all have feudalism, which means lesser chance of the peacevassal.

    Taking a look at your cities it looks to me like you haven't been whipping as much as you should, I see very little anger from whipping. You also didn't bother to trade for Washingtons wine, to let you whip even more.

    On the other hand it is immortal and taking on 3 AI's is more of a nuisance then a game breaking threat. You can probably make peace with 1 of them after crushing one of their stacks.
     
  4. dualmaster

    dualmaster Emperor

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    I thought this was basically a peace vassal, but I see the distinction. I had tried to demand 1 gold from Churchill, but he wouldn't go for it. I also (don't think) I had any other way to get him to pleased/friendly.

    Thanks for the info.
     
  5. dualmaster

    dualmaster Emperor

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    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Thanks for your response! And I've really enjoyed watching all your LPs :goodjob:
     

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