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Have you personally achieved anything you feel pride in?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Lohrenswald, Dec 26, 2016.

  1. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    >Your reward center is always playing for you, but in many cases you've forgotten the game and left it on demo mode.

    What about my example concerning addiction?

    >People don't connect the rewards with what they are doing to get them

    Some people don't, true, that is I guess the main way to control one's own reward center

    >I've seen hundreds of people pass through the "ah ha" moment of realizing they have been doing exactly that since I had that experience myself, and it is always basically the same.

    Disagree. This is where I feel you project. Different people strive for different things in life. I realize it will be hard to convince you otherwise, but I sure as hell know people in my life that have never striven for dominance in one way or another, rather harmony. I'm not one of them, but they are certainly out there. I don't even doubt that maybe a lot of people strive for dominance, but there's also a lot who strive for harmony or recognition.

    >As I said about people who wallow in guilt because they get the reward of constant affirmation, most people are using their emotions as weapons to dominate the people around them.

    I think your point earlier was that people abuse negative emotion to gain a dominant position or receive consolation, is that right? Of course that is true, but it's just part of the picture

    >I was desperate about being pursued.. []

    See, were all different in that sense. I had all of this "pursue" without putting in too much work, just because I'm a lucky fluck. The things I strive after are completely different.

    If I read this right, what you did was you assessed exactly what it was you were seeking for, realized its costs and decided to change your whole reward system around, no?

    So, in a sense, deep introspection and the realization of your somewhat destructive striving were necessary to overcome it.

    Something like that only works in the first place however if you have a functioning reward system. If you are suffering from depression or just have low serotonin levels you start from a different point. If there is no incentive to begin with you cannot change it around, you have to build it up.
     
  2. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    All the things I should have been proud of, like graduating and getting my planning license, I felt empty about and didn't care. Many of the things that others don't associate me with or define me by, I am very proud of.
     
  3. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Leave the game running in demo mode it burns into the screen. Makes it a lot harder to change the rules, but it's still the same effect.

    I'd say most rather than some.

    This is where I completely missed getting the point across. The moment is the same. Yes, different people program themselves with different programs. The point is that they are all running whatever program they started and one, don't realize it, and two they REALLY don't want to take responsibility for having started it. The effects in the moment they see that are the same, no matter what particular program they were running.

    And it isn't about "striving for dominance," it's about dominating. Your person who "strives for recognition"...ever notice that no matter how much they get they are always squeezing more out of someone? "Man, that was really great, let's celebrate!" "It was nothing, really." "What? It was awesome." "Awesome?" "Yeah, totally f'in' awesome!" "I guess." "C'mon dude, let's grab a beer." "Okay, but really, it was nothing." Eventually that fountain of recognition dries up and they move on to the next one.

    Guilt was the specific example. It's a pretty easy one to point out and was in keeping with the conversation at the time. Now I've provided three specific examples.

    Yeah, that's how I described my life too. All golden because people just flocked to my wonderfulness that I just happened to be born with. Until I saw that it was basically cat/dog theory...I was chased because I ran, which explained pretty handily why I was so tired. That was the second specific example, but apparently didn't point sufficiently towards the general case. They usually don't.

    Somewhat? I will gladly match consequences of my appetite for destruction with anyone. And I'm not sure that any amount of "deep introspection" would have gotten me anywhere without guidance. Too easy to just say "wow, after much introspection I was right all along, what a lucky guy I am." Identifying some aspect of my own program never really did much for me.

    Recognizing the universality of the programming despite the individual specifics was the key, and that only came about because a lot of other people with their own programs were going through the same experience at the same time. I had to see that my being aloof was just as much a program as some next guy being guilty and some other next guy being lovable...similar sources, similar results, similar consequences...like whether it's a movie, a ball game, or a sitcom it's all television.

    Conversation drifting towards medical diagnosis, but here's the big question...where does "depression" or "low serotonin level" come from? In my case I could pretty easily track it to years of training my glands not to bother producing any, including through direct application of chemical substitutes. My "reward system" was perfectly satisfied with letting me manage it externally because I reliably did, not because it was inherently flawed.
     
  4. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    >This is where I completely missed getting the point across. The moment is the same. Yes, different people program themselves with different programs. The point is that they are all running whatever program they started and one, don't realize it, and two they REALLY don't want to take responsibility for having started it. The effects in the moment they see that are the same, no matter what particular program they were running.

    This I can agree with to some extent.

    >And it isn't about "striving for dominance," it's about dominating. Your person who "strives for recognition"...ever notice that no matter how much they get they are always squeezing more out of someone? "Man, that was really great, let's celebrate!" "It was nothing, really." "What? It was awesome." "Awesome?" "Yeah, totally f'in' awesome!" "I guess." "C'mon dude, let's grab a beer." "Okay, but really, it was nothing." Eventually that fountain of recognition dries up and they move on to the next one.

    I guess maybe this is the language barrier, but when I said "striving for recognition" I meant a completely different person I feel :D I was trying to paint the image of someone who just wants to be accepted, not someone who feeds on other people's praise at all.

    Also, I don't at all see how this is about dominating. I think you're just falling into the same trap over and over. You're making this concept of dominating so broad that it can fit almost every scenario, while all that happens is that it loses its specific meaning. I still do not agree at all the everyone wants to "dominate". Especially as someone who has a lot of female friends, I've seen a lot of women looking to dominate and just as many in need of harmony or even with a desire to subjugate.

    >Guilt was the specific example.

    I got that, I was just double-checking whether I correctly understood what you were saying.

    >Yeah, that's how I described my life too. All golden because people just flocked to my wonderfulness that I just happened to be born with. Until I saw that it was basically cat/dog theory...I was chased because I ran, which explained pretty handily why I was so tired. That was the second specific example, but apparently didn't point sufficiently towards the general case. They usually don't.

    I don't know, I think you're projecting your life onto me my friend :D I don't really have this feeling of "aloofness" you describe, in fact I'm probably more emotional than most other men allow themselves to be, I have no problem opening up and making myself vulnerable, or with committing to a person. I don't run and I don't get chased.

    >Somewhat? I will gladly match consequences of my appetite for destruction with anyone. And I'm not sure that any amount of "deep introspection" would have gotten me anywhere without guidance. Too easy to just say "wow, after much introspection I was right all along, what a lucky guy I am." Identifying some aspect of my own program never really did much for me.

    What exactly do you mean by guidance? So you are saying that the recognition/identification of your program wasn't the key part, but changing it around was, right?

    >Recognizing the universality of the programming despite the individual specifics was the key, and that only came about because a lot of other people with their own programs were going through the same experience at the same time. I had to see that my being aloof was just as much a program as some next guy being guilty and some other next guy being lovable...similar sources, similar results, similar consequences...like whether it's a movie, a ball game, or a sitcom it's all television.

    Hmmh. I agree on the universality of programming and that one can operate it. Can you go a little more into detail about what exactly did to change yourself around, concretely?

    >Conversation drifting towards medical diagnosis, but here's the big question...where does "depression" or "low serotonin level" come from? In my case I could pretty easily track it to years of training my glands not to bother producing any, including through direct application of chemical substitutes. My "reward system" was perfectly satisfied with letting me manage it externally because I reliably did, not because it was inherently flawed.

    Where does depression come from?

    Faulty mood regulation by the brain (can be hereditary or trained); Genetic predisposition to certain mental illnesses; Stressful life situations; Environmental factors like nutrition, noise pollution and many others; Physical (medical) problems; Traumata
    (http://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression)

    I know what you were hinting at, but don't agree. Faulty "programming" of one's own reward system can be both a cause and a symptom of depression, but it's nowhere near as big as other causes. Not even close.
     
  5. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Gotta say, not too comfortable with the argument being put forth that anything negative in someone's brain is an easy peasy lemon squeezy choice-a-maroo.
     
    Lohrenswald likes this.
  6. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老仁森林

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    this is not how humans work
     
  7. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Man I love your wording on this one. You're right, too. Reasons for depression/negativity are plenty, as listed in my earlier post. Nothing to be happy about, just a fact of life.
     
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    You guys do realize that what you are all arguing for is "I'm depressed, not something I have any control over, I didn't do it and I just have to live with it," right? Say you win with this argument. What's the prize?

    Now, consider that I'm arguing for "your emotional state is the result of choices you have made, therefore you can choose otherwise." I'm trying to tell you my own experience as well as observed results for hundreds of people bears this out. And just for the record I never said it was easy. Now, let's stop for a second and consider the totally ridiculous idea that I actually win this argument. What's the prize then?
     
  9. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    Anything negative can have a great strenght and can present a huge obstacle but it also presents new possibility and opportunity. Its the attitude with which you meet it which is essential and represents the game changer and thats what is in everybodys hands.
     
  10. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    That is not what we're arguing at all.

    We are arguing that you can't simply choose to be fine because reasons. Illness requires treatment. Treatment is a choice. What treatment does is not a choice. When you are taking chemotherapy for cancer it's the chemotherapy fixing the problem. Making the choice to receive chemotherapy is not what fixes the issue. Treatment additionally does not guarantee a solution and the illness can still kill you. To boil down a health problem into a matter of making a choice and then being fine is not only incredibly intellectually bankrupt but it is a blatant insult to the millions of people who suffer under the gauntlet of mental illness or genetic predispositions.
     
  11. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Got it. So the prize you are arguing for is "I can hire someone to fix it."

    Pass.
     
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  12. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Who knew professionals who went to school for fixing health problems are better at fixing health problems? Truly, a revolutionary concept to wrap one's head around.
     
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  13. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    The key word in that statement is professionals. Think about it.
     
  14. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    I did. It's a nice statement. I think I'll read it again a few more times, it's that nice.

    If you want to make a point, you'll have to make it yourself instead of trying to trick someone into making it for you.
     
  15. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    Again with the projection, what is going on dude? I'm not depressed. Depression is a serious mental illness. I'm not even sad, or distant, or aloof, or anything in that vein. I'm more happy than I've ever been in my life. I can discuss depression without being affected by it, no? I would never equal depression with "feeling down", "feeling sad", "lack of meaning".. I wasn't talking about myself.

    Some people are legitimately suffering. Some people take their lives for Christ's sake. Depression is nothing to joke about. I know some people on this board suffer from depression, you shouldn't play it down by saying "depression is a result of your choices". Depression is different for each individual. I feel like you are doing damage to people who legitimately cannot change their situation. They feel bad for being a "burden", for needing therapy, for "not functioning" in society, and attitudes like yours are what make it worse. Sometimes we just have to accept that "just get over it" isn't a legitimate solution.

    For me it is not about winning or losing this argument, I actually really enjoyed this argument with yours and conceded on a lot of points where I thought we agreed. I genuinely care about your point of view and how you managed to "reprogram" your reward center. I thought it was really interesting. Why not just tell me instead of this passive aggressive stuff?
     
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  16. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    No, I really don't have to. You clearly are invested in not getting it, so the effort would be wasted. So, you just go on reading your own statements and telling yourself how nice they are. I'm sure it works for you.
     
  17. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    It does work well for me when the other side in a discussion refuses to participate, yes. I have to fill the empty space with something.
     
  18. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    I have. You call it "projection" or "passive aggressive" or whatever other jargon from the world of the psych branch of modern medicine provides a defense in the moment so that you don't have to hear it. That's a problem that seems insurmountable in this medium, but I continue to try.
     
  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    You have to? Why?

    Note that I've replied.
     
  20. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    I think impure thoughts when the ol noggin is ringing with a little echo, of course. Either way, I'm backing out until something of substance is posted again.
     

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