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Hegemon! Of the Classical Greek World!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Rambuchan, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. Rathvilly

    Rathvilly Emperor

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    Fantastic work on this version - plays great ! Got a tribute win with Athens (Emperor) - Lydia was close behind though .... This has a great feel to it and I'm looking forward to playing more ....
     
  2. Keroro

    Keroro Dororo: Ninja Frog

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    Hi Ram, just dropping in between turns here. Aiolia game going well at present. Very polished my friend, very polished indeed. I may take Ithake for a ride after my current game.
    ______________________

    Report from our ambassador in Aiolia follows.

    Honoured friends.

    Grave news from the great city of Pergamon in Asia Minor. The hostile Lydians, no doubt in league with the Persians, have declared war upon the innocent Aioles. Defences have been prepared from the Propontis to the Aegean, and our two Kings are both active in the countries defence. The Lydian armies, based mainly around their fast Assyrian cavalry and archers, are flooding over the border. The days to come will no doubt be bleak and filled with dark acts by many men, in the names of many Gods.

    An etching follows.

    Your friend, as ever.

    Kerorion.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. King Coltrane

    King Coltrane King

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    Ram: Congrats on the new version! its wonderful and so well polished. I loved the old version, but this new one blows me away!

    I've sorta been hiding in the shadows, playing a little when I have a chance. I just started my second masters degree in archaeology at UCL in London, so I wont have that much time to play, but I'm only human... :p

    I've been playing a game with Athens (yes, that's apparently all I do haha) that I will write a detailed report on soon, but I just wanted to let you know about an error i encountered. In the hegemony race screen (beautiful btw) if you click on "view hegemonic struggle" or whatever it says you (or at least I) get a hangup. Ie the game freezes. I have repeated it a few times now. I dont know if theres anything you can do about it (and honestly it doesnt matter TOO much I dont think) but I just wanted to give you a heads up about it.
     
  4. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    I just checked and nothing happened. Maybe there's a file missing from the installation overlays?
     
  5. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    Ram, there's a serious-y bug. The Trade Ports can be built inland! I know, there's only one place (at Pangaion near Chalkidiké) where this can happen, but it's still somewhat illogical for someone to come from inland and build a trade port without having access to the sea.
     
  6. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    Wow! Lots of posts! Glad you guys are enjoying it so much!

    It's been a mad mad week, but now I have time to get back to everyone.

    You are absolutely right. That is a random tidbit.
    As I mentioned in the previous version, I haven't and won't be touching the Diplomacy text file. I know it's not ideal and you have my humble apologies for being so negligent. I just don't have the time to go through all of that. The Civilopedia text file took me months to do, you know, with those hundreds of entries I've written for your gaming pleasure. Dealing with the Diplo text just isn't something I can spare the time on and I don't think it's such a massive dampener on things, given all else that's been done.
    Yes I did. Those immobiles lead to much bolder AI behaviour. Much more interesting that way.
    Really? Which ones? I'd be happy to fix those.
    Thank you. It's good to get some compliments. Glad you're liking all that.
    It's plural. The singular is Homi. As in "Yo! Wassup Homi?" :mischief:
    That's more weird than serious-y. Thanks for spotting it. Easily fixed by checking the 'coastal installation' box and done already for the patched biq to come.
     
  7. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    Hello and thank you so much for posting. Your kind words really mean a lot :)

    You make a very good observation. Trying to create the realities of Ancient Greece is something that I've laboured over for a long time with this scenario. I've already restricted the city growth (3 pop. per settler, hoplites have pop. cost), used immobiles and other techniques to get them to wage stupid wars and I've given the AI resources out at sea to go for. I think that's as far as I can go really without upsetting the balance and game dynamics.

    The unfortunate and unavoidable truth is that the game engine and core AI programming simply doesn't allow for what you describe - especially the building of colonies in far flung places. The AI just won't do it, whatever techniques you use. It's something modders have been moaning about for years and a big reason why we haven't seen many successful pirate and Ancient Greece scenarios. What I've come up with is, I believe, as close as we can get.

    By the way, the packing of resources on the Greek mainland (there are also many in Asia Minor) is required for a number of reasons. The main ones are: It's what gives each civ their respective character and power. It's the crucial mechanism I've used for all the strategic dynamics I've put in (see the Tribal & Hegemonic resources). And it's also necessary for the Tribute dynamics, which are particular to the Greeks rather than the Asiatic civs.


    Yes, as I mentioned, a lot of attention was paid to the mid-rank and minor civs. They should be quite viable and fun to play with.
    I have found quite the opposite in my experience. I've managed to research it before the AI (because they don't value it as a research target) and then do a massive round of tech trading with it to get a tech lead. Anyway, the AI's attitude to that tech is a bit of a mystery. But a nice little exploit. Just don't go telling everyone now.
    Naksos doesn't need a harbour. It just needs to be a coastal installation, which is what the pedia tells you.

    I have looked into both Rhegion and Naksos. They are both set to do exactly as the pedia describes. Not sure what the problem is.

    PS. Rhegion is a pretty powerful wonder. But there are more powerful wonders than it out there.
     
  8. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    Rathvilly! Really good to hear from you! Your feedback was instrumental in the progress that's been made from the last version to this one. Congratulations on your victory. Maybe on one of your future games you'll chalk up a Hegemonic Victory and get to see the animation we made.

    Glad you're impressed my friend. That means a lot coming from you. If you go for Ithake, bear in mind the little fix that needs to happen with Odysseus and the King of Ithake (Virote's posts back in the thread). I have prepared a patched biq which fixes that and will release it in due course. Just waiting to hear other observations and feedback so I can do it all in one hit.
    Thanks for the screenie and the (as ever) colourful game report. You did well in the early game I see. But did you see off those greedy Lydians?

    That's great to hear. Thank you. I hope you're enjoying the pedia entries in particular.

    And my thanks to you too for all the valuable insights and advice you gave in the previous version. You've played a big part in making this scenario what it is today.

    I hope Takhisis is right. I don't remember that being a problem when we tested it.
     
  9. iPwn

    iPwn Chieftain

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    I built Rhegion in a town that was doing 7 spt. After it was built, town started doing 70 spt. So it would do 300 spt, if it was built in a town that does 30 spt - sounds like best wonder in game to me. And Naxos most certainly was not available before I built a harbor. Could something be wrong with my download? Would be interesting to see what other people have experienced with Euboia, but they probably are not the most popular choice.
    I am interested if that Argead wonder - does it autoproduce Argead bodyguards now? I think I noticed one of those running around.
     
  10. TsarNikolai

    TsarNikolai Chieftain

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    Great scenario; plays like magic. Speaking of wonders, I'm not able to build Syrakousai in the first era with the Korinthians. I'm at the right island, having road-linked both resources and having built the trade house. Perhaps there is some other requirement?
     
  11. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    We haven't yet heard from anyone else who has played as Euboea. I gave them a whirl when I was test playing the new colony wonders. Not far, but enough to test their wonders. Which is why I'm a bit perplexed with your report about the need for a harbour for Naksos, and extra perplexed by TsarNikolai's report. Both those wonders aren't set to require a harbour, only be 'coastal installations'.
    Oh yeah, Macedonia's Argead Dynasty wonder does now produce the Argead Bodyguards. But they can build those units without the wonder and can upgrade units into the Bodyguards too. Indeed, I souped up Macedonia quite a bit for this version. :groucho:

    Good to have you back. Glad to hear you're enjoying :)

    Ahhh, Syrakousai, now there's a seriously powerful wonder.

    But it's very strange you aren't able to build it. You seem to have met all the requirements. Strange also that iPwn found he had to build a harbour before Naksos. Have you tried building a harbour to see if that allows you to build Syrakousai? Bit of a hassle, I know, but worth it for the many benefits the wonder gives.

    Could it be that the check box 'coastal installation' means one must build a harbour first...? That shouldn't be the case and, when testing, that wasn't the case.

    Can anyone else chip in on this one?
     
  12. Keroro

    Keroro Dororo: Ninja Frog

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    Ram - suggestion, make the leader unit a foot unit so it can be transported on early ships.

    Reason - elite Toxotes on Penteconters win an amphibious assault and generate a leader. Now what do I do with him? He cannot board the penteconter. He ends up standing on a coast tile or waiting until I take the adjacent city, then he's stranded on an island and unable to do anything until I get horse transports researched.

    Other units generated from combat may be likewise effected - it's a minor annoyance easily dealt with if you're planning an updated .biq.

    Yes. Eventually. :) When I was just getting the upper hand and had Sardis under siege they got their Treasury Guard units and things got a whole lot tougher! 7/5/1 at that stage of the game is a major power - intentionally of course. Eventually managed to pillage their only supplies of bronze and lead and they were back to spamming Assyrian Mercs which weren't threatening against hoplite defenders.

    The Aiolian unique unit is fun. Gives you a big leg up in terms of the tribute victory if you're still around when you get to them.
    __________________________________

    Further news.

    For years we fought the Lydians, in truth we never thought it would end. Their troops were so limitless, their gold so inexhaustible. But we fought on, prevailing one year, defending desperately the next.

    For generations we fought. Weapons changed over time. Strategies developed, theories on warfare were tested and adopted, or rejected. Men died. Women died. Children died. The lucky were mourned, the unlucky cursed. Eventually we gained the upper hand and took the initiative. The fall of Sardeis was heard across the Greek world. It was heard in Troy, but instead of their admiration it earned us their fear - they declared war on us, stabbing us in the back, close to our heart, close to Pergamon. The Gods are to be praised that they are weak and cowardly, and unable to use the advantage of surprise to do us real harm.

    Now they and their ancestors shall suffer. Aiolia does not allow treachery to go unpunished.

    A painted screen follows.

    Your confidant.

    Kerorion III.
     

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  13. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    :D I know. It was more of a passing comment.
    You could send it out so that someone can check it out.
    I know, meant a leader and over half a dozen Tribute from my Vuldakonistas in the North, and several more from Aetolian and Theban interlopers.
    Right now, I can think of Hastus/Hastatus and of a confusion Secret HQ/Imperial Retreat/Synedrion. I should check. Some entries are left incomplete, I believe the Attic Swordsman (formerly Xiphomakos) has no entry at all. I can't check right now. :undecide:
    I can't check right now, but the same would apply for the Vuldakonista and other units creating Tribute.

    The inability to move my Leader south to Samos (I engaged in a war with Chalkidiké to be able to establish a beachhead at the Pangaion Mines) led to my setting up the Synedrion at my main Trade Port of Aphidnai (just a little west of Thassos, also under my control) and the Athenian culture has begun flowing into the area. Champions and Vuldakonista are more useful individually, the former to sneak attack the green-robed Toxotai and the latter to generate trophies (eight so far, IIRC). And at this rate I'll have generated another leader in a few dozen turns, and still have plenty of time to send him down to Samos and build an Imperial Retreat. I say 'we' because Athens is still a Tyranny.

    Speaking of governments, would you be willing to consider changing the governments to 'tyrannía' 'dimokratía', etc.? A flavour suggestion.
     
  14. King Coltrane

    King Coltrane King

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    i'll do my writeup later today (most likely) but another suggestion: update the pedia for the "long walls" to reflect that they auto-produce imperial triremes.

    (btw, just a little preview: as athens, im at 13% land, 20% pop, currently beating lydia who is only 10%, 11% right now. and i have 50,600 tribute. and i have 9/10 oaths. and its 420 bc)
     
  15. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    The Dodekanesioi are raiding Lydia.

    The entry for Iron excedes the allowed HTML link, according to Windows. :(
     
  16. King Coltrane

    King Coltrane King

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    uy, i just wrote a whole AAR and then lost it. stupid google chrome.

    anyway, ill try to summarize as quickly as i can.

    I played as Athens because i like how flexible they are. their navy allows for easy tribute victories, while their other units are also solid enough to allow for possible hegemony or domination victories.

    I settled Attica as quickly as I could, with my first settler going west and settling south of thebes. I think a city here is key to athenian power, as it provides a productive city and a lot of resources. I opted for marble, grapes, and gold rather than the iron, though i think both options are great (especially if you get the iron variant on the coast, which i didnt). with 5 cities (including athens) i basically turtled and just built up my homeland. I hooked up the marble as quickly as i could to allow earlier construction of the temple wonders.

    but no question, the 2 most powerful early wonders for me were the temple of aphrodite and the temple of artemis. The vuldakonista gave me a strong (and fast) land assault force, while the free toxotes served as my marines. and all of it was free.

    Eventually I sent a small force of like, 2 or 3 imperial triremes full of archers and 2 hoplites to take the cyclades. This proved remarkably easy, which i was happy to see, but neither delos nor naxos could build league improvements due to poor city placement. which sucked.

    About the same time, Thebes declared war and got an alliance with phokis, lokris, and thessaly against me, so I focused completely on unit production for a while. I mostly created hoplites, as my offensive capabilities were fine between the champions and the vuldakonistas. So I worked my way north. And conquered all of it. I went far enough that I had my own source of Illyrians and Macedonians. But all the units I needed for this massive campaign put my economy in real trouble.

    After using my remaining money to upgrade my free archers to miktos toxotes (which are some of the best units in the game I think) my tiny fleet sailed east for the dodecanese. Why? Because they had built the temple of hermes, and both aristotle and plato on the main island of Rhodes. My economy was hurting pretty bad and i needed the economic boost from Hermes (I missed building it myself by 2 turns). And with minimal difficulty I took all of the dodekanese possessions. And my economy went from losing ~40 gpt to +80 gpt. which may not seem like much, but at the time it was a huge boon.

    Next I took euboea with a MASSIVE force (15 imp. triremes full) of my entire military. thankfully, they had a MPP with korinth, so I could assault the isthmus as well with a small contingent of League hoplites in armies. Both regions fell quickly, but korinth survived way up in the north.

    With this strong overall position, i paused to look at victory conditions and weigh my options. Lydia, though expansionist, had not come close to taking all of anatolia by this point. and as i posted earlier, I was in better position for domination than they were. similarly, I had 50,000 tribute at this point. additionally, I had 9/10 of the oaths. I ruled out domination (too much work) and didnt want to go for the tedium of grinding out the last 10,000 tribute, so i opted for an invasion of Messenia to acquire the last 2 hegemonic resources required for victory.

    I put my HUGE force on the fleet and launched an invasion that on the first turn saw me acquire 5 islands, and 3 mainland cities. So they only had ONE city left, which I probably could have taken if i had planned a bit better. (hippeis armies are amazing) I used this opportunity to form an alliance with sparta against messenia, just to make us diplomatically closer (since I would take the last city next turn anyway). But messenia magically got Chalkidike and Corcyra to go to war with me before i had my victory. Chalkidike used some of the finest AI naval strategy I have ever seen in Civ and took 4 or 5 of my islands in a brilliant opening sneak attack. and with my military on the other side of the map, there was nothing i could do!

    So I asked Macedon for help. and they TORE through chalkidike. (btw, i could have won the game at any point here, but i wanted revenge!) I managed to get a skeleton army together and retook my possessions after a few turns, but my invasion of corcyra did NOT go as well.

    first, their ships were on par with the majority of my fleet and took out 2 of my unmanned imperial triremes. second, after turtling the ENTIRE game, their defense force was enormous. they must have had 30ish units in the city. And while I could have moved my whole army up to invade, my marine force proved too small to do enough damage and take the city. so i sued for peace. I was sad that I had (functionally) been defeated at corcyra, but I consoled myself by building the snake column, then the last oath, and claiming my hegemon victory in 412 bc.
     

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  17. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    How come you need a large force to destroy the Eubaeis? They're there for the taking early on, they'll trade with no one so you'll have Camps and Champions before they've got even close to Episema, and are a bunch of weakligns anyway. I think that conquering Corinth would do me a lot of good because it'd allow me to send fleets against the western powers if they decided to get punky with me, but the eastern end of the isthmus is easier to defend.

    Campaign musing: Thrace, Macedon and Illyria have all declared war against me recently, but for some reason they ignore the Athenian-controlled Hexapolis centred around Pangaio, and instead choose to send stacks of doom through Delphi and Thebes, only to arrive at my border and… try to run straight down through to the southern end of the Attic Peninsula. If they concentrated on one single city they'd win (I tested this by repeatedly playing the same turn with different settings), but they just kept splitting up once they got to the hills, as the faster untis would run ahead… also, by the time they actually got to the Attic Peninsula they were ready to negotiate, if they'd struck directly at the Hexapolis I'd have had to hold them off there without negotiation. I think the factor there is that I have a leader waiting to be shipped out as soon as I can transport him to Samos, to build the Imperial retreat there.

    Question:
    Shouldn't the Imperial Retreat SW require Imperialism as government to work? Maybe it could be arranged for each government (but not tyranny) to have their own extra palace (besides the Synedrion), so a switch in government would mean rebuilding?​
     
  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    Bug report: The Attic Swordsman has no entry at all, just a blank space and 'upgrades to: Athenian Hero'.
     
  19. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    Although I'm replying to people specifically here, there are a few questions below for players generally, which I'd like to hear back on for the tweaked biq.

    TsarNikolai:

    Any joy with Syrakousai and the harbour?

    I'm very keen to get to the bottom of that puzzle and would be most grateful if other players have any insights into the 'coastal installation' issue mentioned previously - in post #91. Anyone? Sadly, my disk drive has packed up so I can't actually test it out. Grrr.

    Keroro:

    Amazing turn around in your game there. Kudos to you. You are indeed a worthy statesman. Looks like Asia Minor is no longer in the lap of the gods, but in your own lap. I'm curious as to how you'll play / have played it out thereafter. I'd certainly punish Troy for their treachery, cowardice and deception - after all, vengeance is an eternal dynamic in the hearts of mortals and immortals alike - and then shoot for a Tribute Victory. Though I note you're yet to meet your Greek brethren across the sea, some of whom may well be giving you a run for your money on that victory condition. The Arbitrator can surely help you extract the required tribute and the likes of Phrygia, as per history of course, don't have anything in them come the mid-to-late game.

    Good suggestion about the Leader being a foot unit. I've made that change (with the Vuldakonista too) and will look into doing the same with other battle created units. Amazing that I never encountered such an issue in all the test games I played.

    Takhisis:

    Yes, I wrote up a pedia entry for the Attic Swordsman when you first brought it up. I don't see why the Imperial Retreat cannot be a Small Wonder only available to civs running the Imperialism government. Unless any other players see major problems with doing that?

    King Coltrane:

    A very assured victory there and a fine report too - which I'm sure will be of very good use to other players. Great screenies too. Thank you and congratulations. :goodjob:

    So you got to see the Hegemonic Victory animation video we made then? What did you think of it? We took a bit of a cheeky risk with it conceptually, which I like to think it paid off, but haven't heard from anyone who has been man enough to get to see it yet.

    Interesting (and glad from a design point of view) to hear that you had some naval shocks from the AI. They are satisfyingly crafty on that front! I was especially keen to bring out the historical characteristics of Corcyra; their naval strength and the quagmire one might end up in if getting involved in a war with them.

    I'd like to see how you fair with some of the lesser civs. As you say, Athens are pretty souped up, with all kinds of victory options. I reckon, with your knowledge of the period, you'd have good fun and a very different game with Ionia (one of my favourites to play as). It'd be quite a challenge, but would expose you to all kinds of other dynamics the scenario has to offer and would truly test your mettle as a player. Macedonia are another good option. I'm quite chuffed with how they've come out. Tough at first but, if you manage to overcome the early obstacles the barbaroi present, you can of course carve through everyone else with ease. A very different option to Athens indeed.
     
  20. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    The Vuldakonista? I loaded a few onto a Mycenean Galley when I set off to conquer Pangaio…
    I already reported it? :blush: :shifty: Nothing to see here…
    Of course that I'll be doing this in character and not build an Imperial Retreat with my leader in, say, Ikaria or Samos.
    If I may butt in, I've got dibs on Dodekanesa since version 1.3. This time around, they've managed to build a few wonders and, even worse, they're sending fleets raiding against Lydia and holding their own (even though Thrake an Lydia teamed up on Bithynia and it was a short, brutal war up in the north-east) against the Asian barbarians.
     

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