1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Photobucket has changed its policy concerning hotlinking images and now requires an account with a $399.00 annual fee to allow hotlink. More information is available at: this link.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Dismiss Notice
  7. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Hegemon

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Rambuchan, Oct 27, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    HEGEMON
    for Conquests and/or Complete only


    ~~~0~~~


    Rambuchan of London here displays his inquiry,
    so that human achievements, and indeed follies, may not be forgotten in time,
    and great and marvellous deeds - those displayed by the Greeks and mainly the Greeks - may not be without their glory;
    and especially to show why we fought each other.




    I have spent much time travelling the known world and, with my inquiry here displayed,
    am able to offer some guidance and information to assist you as leader of your people.
    You may accept or discount this as you wish, of course,
    but never forget that the gods are jealous of he who grows too prosperous.



    ~~~0~~~​


    Background: It is the year 1200BC. The Greek and Mediterranean world our ancestors knew has collapsed and we are now in what some call a 'Dark Age'. Natural disasters, invasions by Sea Peoples and Dorians from the North - in my opinion merely the hand of Fate in disguise - have all laid waste to the trade systems and governments which had until recently flourished and provided for the peoples of these lands. Our loss has been great and our future is uncertain.

    The legacies of the Minoans, Phoenicians, Myceneans and Hitties are hardly to be felt anymore. We have lost the arts of metal working, of writing and most else and now we must seemingly start afresh.

    Special: It is apparent to me that we Greeks yearn to be free and indepedent. But we are also beset by powerful empires around us in the known world. These do not love freedom and are thus able to martial their peoples into mighty empires that threaten our way of life. We need a Greek leader who is powerful and charismatic enough to unite us and lead us in the face of these imperial powers. It may even be that we need something like a “Hegemon” to put us on the world map and lead the Greek World to New Glory!


    ~~~0~~~​


    Status & Version History

    - First Version: v1/v1.12 aka ‘The Hungry Big Boned Lady’.

    Uploaded 27th October 2011.
    Removed 25th November after 83 downloads.

    - Current Version: v1.3 aka ‘The Big Boned Lady had a Chowdown’

    Uploaded 25th November 2011.

    If you wish to skip the discussion on the first version then start reading from post #92 in this thread.


    I would like to say a special THANK YOU and give recognition to all those who DLed, played and posted their feedback and advice on the first version. Greatly greatly appreciated. I have taken on board every bit of advice, pretty much, and these have been implemented. Those kind folk are:

    Virote Considon, King Coltrane, Blue Monkey, geminisama, Sir Karnizer, 7ronin, Keroro, Rob (R8XFT), Rathvilly :thumbsup:


    ~~~0~~~​


    What’s Changed since v1?

    As is my style, I’ve don’t really do patches here and there. So it’s a pretty comprehensive upgrade, touching virtually all areas of the scenario. We might even start calling the Big Boned Lady a….Fat Lady. She’s put on weight for sure. And she may well be warming her voice up. But she ain’t singing just yet.

    See post #5 for what’s still required for her to get into full song.

    Anyway….I do believe the new version is very much improved. It’s very much a new game and more detailed and interesting, I hope you’ll find. There are many changes right across the board, both major and minor, including:

    New Features:

    :c5gold: Leagues: The top flight civs of Athens, Sparta, Thebes and Macedonia now have their historical leagues in the later game, evoking the Peloponnesian Wars and later struggles for Hegemony. These Leagues offer each of them one unique wonder and a line of unique improvements which evoke the strategic realities these civs faced. These improvements tie them to the relevant hotspots on the map in history and also to the governments they operated in history.
    :c5gold: Tribal Camps: New unique improvement available to all but the most minor civs. These AP the new Champion unit and give unique benefits tailored to each civ.
    :c5gold: Tribal Resources: These beautify the map and very much up the strategic interplay, historical info and reality. They can function as Hegemonic Resources (for that victory), League Resources for those buildings (as above) and/or Tribal Resources (for camps). Episema and coins from the period have been used as artwork. I think they look pretty.
    :c5gold: New Tribute Victory: Tribute points are acquired via tribute given to the Gods and received in taxation (especially Athens), as well as the usual VP things, though these are less important.
    :c5gold: Trophies: This is the solution I came up with for radar towers. They now add more strategy, historical info and beauty.

    New Game Balance:

    :c5greatperson: Faster Turn Times: Air trade now implemented, map cropped and Trade Ports brought in for accessing key resources on the islands.
    :c5greatperson: Tech Tree Tweaked: It now takes longer to get through it, timing it closer to history. Also altered the Hegemonic Era Tech Tree, only slightly, but it makes a difference.
    :c5greatperson: Hegemonic Victory: Oaths of Fealty now cheaper to build. More of each Hegemonic resource on the map, so acquiring them should be easier. On the flipside, there are more Oaths you need to acquire now, evoking the historical realities better (eg. Thassos and the Pangaion Mines)
    :c5greatperson: Domination Victory: Tweaked to what should be more achievable now for Thrace and the Asiatic civs to go for. The western Greeks may have to do something to stop them.
    :c5greatperson: New Tribute Victory Condition: As above, giving players another target to go for.
    :c5greatperson: Removed Imperial Roads (Railroads): Why did I ever leave them in?!?!

    New Artwork:

    :c5goldenage: Mines, now called estates.
    :c5goldenage: Borders
    :c5goldenage: Advisors
    :c5goldenage: City graphics
    :c5goldenage: Some new pedia icons, though I've been having real trouble with these for some reason.
    :c5goldenage: New leaderheads and leaders

    New Wonders:

    :c5citystate: Long Walls of Athens
    :c5citystate: Serpent Column
    :c5citystate: Renamed and retuned some of the existing ones
    :c5citystate: Tied some of the existing ones to the appropriate civs (eg. Lysander's Fleet only available to Sparta now) and added the four leagues mentioned above

    New Units:

    :c5war: Confederate Hoplite: late game multi-unit from Serpent Column Wonder.
    :c5war: League Hoplite: late game multi-unit from League Wonders.
    :c5war: Phalanx: late game multi-unit from Macedonia's League Wonder.
    :c5war: The Rebel: Ionia and Aiolia's new unique unit, amphibious upsetter.
    :c5war: The Champion: Available to all but only via the tribal camps. Rare, stealth attacking, monster.
    :c5war: Flavoured settlers and workers: With appropriate artwork.
    Also, renamed a bunch of units for further historical info and entertainment and wrote more in the way of pedia entries.

    Other suprises!

    [pimp]


    ~~~0~~~​


    DOWNLOAD HEGEMON v1.3 HERE

    NB. If you DLed the first version you should delete it before installing the new version.

    Installation Instructions:

    1) DL the Hegemon folder above.
    2) DL the biq file attached to the foot of this post.

    Once downloaded, extract both files (folder & biq) to the following directory depending on the version you have:

    C3C Users: Civilization III/Conquests/Scenarios
    Civ 3 Complete Users: Civilization III Complete/Conquests/Conquests

    (Look out for the old 'folder within a folder' trap! Make sure there isn't a Hegemon/Hegemon folder situation going on. There can only be room for ONE Hegemon.)
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    Credits

    I must first offer my thanks to the fine work of others who have made this scenario possible. Chief amongst these are:

    - Thamis and the creators of TAM. Their work, especially on the tech tree, seemed very sensible to use as a base on which to begin work. Thanks!
    - Maisse Arsouye for his (as always) outstanding map, which allows for all manner of intrigues, challenges and situations, as well as the scale required to get the detail of the time period in. He also had much civ detail in there already. Thank you!
    - Sandris - The unit machine. Quality and quantity and a keen eye for detail which has allowed many of the civs in this scenario to field appropriate units. Thank you sir!
    - All those who taught me so much about scenario making when I needed my hand held through Rise & Fall of the Mughals - too many to mention!




    Concept

    I wanted to create something that would capture that sense of a busy and diverse community of Greeks, spread right across the eastern Mediterranean, calling on each other for favours and alliances, worshipping the gods, rebuilding themselves after the so-called ‘Greek Dark Ages’ and eventually vying with each other for supremacy of the Greek world.

    I wanted something that allowed both the reliving of certain historical episodes, as well as something that would allow a more freeform rewriting of history as the player may want to. Something not quite a strictly proscribed scenario, but not quite freeform mod either.

    Hegemon pretty much provides this and, I believe, caters for lovers of the ancient Greek World in bucketloads. Though you can reshape history in your vision, it is virtually doubtless that you’ll end up fighting the Peloponnesian Wars, that you’ll end up contending with (or driving) a mighty Macedonian military machine by the late game and that the barbaroi will not be easy to deal with.

    Whatever it is, it’s certainly fun! And it’s certainly a challenge to win the game (see notes for improvements and feedback below for more on this).

    Approach

    In terms of the approach, I have very much gone for a first person narrator and guide, who leads you through the game via the Civilopedia, throwing in all kinds of conflicting opinions and reports and diversionary snacks of information. It’s simply more fun and interesting than the standard pedia writing model!

    This approach has been dictated by the tone and style of Herodotus, and to a lesser degree Thucydides, and what they were interested in. In other words, I’ve focussed on the political and geographic angle, and excluded mythical and fantasy elements. I know some will want to see all kinds of mythic gods and monsters in here. I was certainly tempted myself! So, in accordance with Herodotus’ religiosity, the only two concessions on this front are the running of ‘favours of the gods’ and the building of the Twelve Great Olympian Wonder Temples. Other than that, it’s very much real world content.

    Right, now on with the content!!
     
  3. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    TIME PERIOD:

    - 1200BC to 150BC
    - Spread over three eras: The Archaic Era, The Classical Era & The Hegemonic Era
    - Length of game: A suitably epic 550 turns.


    SETTING:

    - The Classical Greek World (minus Magna Græcia)


    THE CIVS

    31 civs, all playable, as follows:

    The Barbaroi:

    Illyria
    Thrace
    Chersonesos
    Bithynia
    Phrygia
    Caria
    Lydia

    Greeks in Asia Minor:

    Ionia
    Aiolia
    Troy

    Island Greeks:

    Ithaka
    Kerkyas
    Cyclades
    Crete
    Euboia
    Dodecanese

    Mainland Greeks:

    Elis
    Messenia
    Lokris
    Phokis
    Chalkidike
    Epeiros
    Aetolia
    Thessaly
    Argos
    Mycenae
    Corinth

    Top Flight Greeks:

    Athens
    Sparta
    Macedonia
    Thebes


    RESOURCES & LUXURIES

    Luxuries include: Wine, Prophets, Amber, Opium, Gems
    Strategic Resources: Copper, Tin, Iron, Saltpeter, Horses,
    Special Strategic Resources: See special features.


    SPECIAL FEATURES

    :c5greatperson: ~ Favour from the Gods: There are certain improvements which can be built that auto-produce flag units that allow a player to gain ‘favour from the gods’ i.e. run treasure units such as Temple Offerings and Libation Wine back for extra gp and tribute points.
    :c5greatperson: ~ Special Line of Wonders: 12 Great Temple Wonders to the 12 Olympian Gods
    :c5greatperson: ~ Special Line of Military: As the ancient Greeks did it, so have I. So skirmishers have been used extensively in Hegemon, providing players with fast moving foot units that can bombard and soften up advancing parties. They are useful for harassment but may be too weak to take on hoplite guarded cities.
    :c5greatperson: ~ Leagues: The four top flight civs can each build their own unique line of wonders and improvements, evoking The Peloponnesian League, The Delian League, The Boeotian League and The Hellenes League.
    :c5greatperson: ~ Tribal Camps: All but the most minor civs get a unique ‘camp’ improvement tied to their tribal resources. These all produce a Champion unit every 20 turns and also give specific benefits tailored to each civ.
    :c5greatperson: ~ Unique Wonders for Each Civ: Even the duff ones!
    :c5greatperson: ~ League Resources: Include the likes of Delian Tribute, Grain Tax, tied to the Leagues mentioned above.
    :c5greatperson: ~ Hegemonic Resources: Thassians, Aetolians, Troezens etc
    :c5greatperson: ~ Tribal Resources: Attic Tribes, Dioscuri Cult, Thebans, Euboians, Samians etc

    These three categories of resources are VERY important. They are all, in some way or other, required to construct the full compliment of League improvements and Wonders. And to win the game via either a Hegemonic or Tribute Victory, which leads me onto...


    VICTORY CONDITIONS

    Hegemon is designed to be a challenging scenario to win. So hats off to any of you who achieve one of the first three.

    :strength: ~ Hegemonic Victory:

    You must attain twelve Oaths of Fealty from the significant regions and power bases of the Greek World (functions like a spaceship victory). This is the victory condition for the real tough guys out there.

    :strength: ~ Tribute Victory:

    You must give a certain amount of tribute to the Gods and receive it from your allies to accumulate enough Tribute Points to win (functions like a Victory Points victory). Athens’ control of The Delian League puts them in a prime position to win this, not to mention an envied one for their rivals.

    :strength: ~ Domination Victory:

    30% of the known world’s territory and 40% of its population.

    ~ Histograph:

    zzzzzzzzz. It’s always there by default for back up.


    ^ This is a screenie from v1. The required Oaths of Fealty have changed in v1.3.
     
  4. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    These screenies are from v1. I will take more of v1.3 and replace.

    Please post your own!


    Athens advances into the Peloponnese:


    A look inside Delphi;


    Pedia entry for the Athenian Hoplite:


    Thrake pedia entry to give a flavour of what lies within the pedia. (I haven't done the pedia entries for all civs yet).


    Land Units


    Naval Units
     
  5. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    KNOWN FLAWS & REQUESTS FOR HELP with v1.3

    With all the extra work that I did for v1.3, I had to leave some things out. I’m quite pooped now!

    I’ve made sure there are no game breaking flaws though. But there are still some, so would still appreciate some help with these.

    Significant Flaws:

    - The Tribute Victory: This is deliberately set too high. I’ll be amazed if anyone achieves it. The reasons for doing this are:

    (a) Setting a finely tuned VP victory condition on a scenario takes extensive extensive game testing. I’m just one guy and it’s an epic game. So your feedback is required on this please.

    (b) I, for one, get really cheesed off when I’m robbed of victory. I didn’t want the AI doing this to someone going for the all important Hegemonic Victory. Indeed, I didn’t feel it was a right for a player to deny themselves a Hegemonic Victory by hitting the Tribute Victory condition too early.


    Minor Flaws:

    - Governments: I wouldn’t say this is a major game breaking flaw. But it still needs to be changed a bit. I have some ideas on this based on Virote Considon’s suggestions, but was too chicken to implement them. Didn't want to nerf the whole thing up. Will discuss in the thread in due course. Please make any other suggestions.

    - Spaceship Art: I think the Hegemonic Victory design may well be complete now. So I had a look at the art for the Spaceship. I understand now how this works. I even have a pretty good idea about what would be a cool thing to do with this. However, there's no way my graphics skills (skill? skills?! :lol: ) extend to achieving it. So if anyone would like to help I'd be most grateful. It'd be much fun and not too demanding I reckon.

    - Pedia and Tech Icons: My problems with icons continued. So, sadly, these are not finished. Frankly, I was exhausted after implementing and testing all the new features and disheartened when my efforts failed. This will have to come in a patch.

    - Prophets Icon: I was too tired to create a new pedia icon for the new Prophets resource.

    - Julius Caesar Advisor head: There’s still a problem with this, now used for Aiolia. It sometimes shows with the black square around it, sometimes not though. Really not sure why it’s happening, the pcx seems fine. Any help please?

    - Two particular Unit Pedia Icons: There is still a weird thing happening with the icon for the Agrothes and another unit. You’ll see this if you look at the units list section of the pedia. The game seems to prefer reading the large icon but not the small, though both are there and properly referenced. Any ideas?

    - In City Luxury Icons: Some luxury icons in the city screen may be a bit confused. I’m not sure I understand how this works properly. I’ve run out of time to educate myself here and it’s hardly a game breaker anyway. Still, it'd be good to get it fixed up properly.

    - Unit upgrade paths: I fixed some of the more important upgrade paths with units. Sorting this out is a mammoth task though, with the likely adding of many many more units required. So I’ve settled with the important ones and will have to get back to this for the next version. Please let me know if you spot any weird unit upgrades or lack thereof and I will fix these.

    - Unit sounds: I’ve gone in a fixed all the unit sounds that I spotted. But there are so many units that there may be more with either no or inappropriate sounds. Please let me know if you spot any units without sounds, or with weird sounds, and I shall gladly fix them.

    - Pedia entries: I.....still....need....to......write.....more......pedia.....entries. I’ve written a tonne of new ones for v1.3 and am pretty pooped now. So I’ll have to get back to finishing these. I have, however, made sure that players are at least given the functional info in every single entry and the a la Herodotus approach has been followed through with those I have done.

    - Use of language with Civ names: This is still quite inconsistent and I still didn’t get any feedback on this. I don’t mind adjectives and civ names from the biq remaining as the Greek. But there are so many pedia entries, executed in two or three main sessions, that inconsistencies in approach and spelling have slipped in eg. Thrace / Thrake.

    - Use of language with units: Some use English names, some use Greek (which I don’t speak!) I feel it’d be good to get this consistent, ideally all in Greek. But would this be too confusing? Is it really that important?


    ---

    Anyway, those are all the introductory posts out the way.

    Over to you guys. Have fun! :goodjob:
     
  6. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    Messages:
    9,249
    Location:
    Skaville UK Reputation: 1
    First to DL! :cool:

    What did the cause of that crash turn out to be?

    As to:
    Make sure the splashes aren't using any pure white or pure black. The game treats these colours as invisible in both .flc and .pcx files, I've found. Other than that, I'm not so sure...
     
  7. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,845
    Location:
    Limbo (non-Landmark Virtual Aether)
    Great to see you back in C3 C&C, Rambuchan! Just downloaded & look forward to playing this new scenario.
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    44,353
    Location:
    Thessalonike, Greece
    Hey Rambuchan, good to see you back :)

    If you need any gfx for your mod be sure to ask me, i have gotten mildly better in gfx making since you last were around ;)
     
  9. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,845
    Location:
    Limbo (non-Landmark Virtual Aether)
    Does it seem to be with all of them or only certain ones?
     
  10. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    Virote: Hi! The cause of that particular crash was some weird hidden folder issue I discovered. Basically, the files could be found via a programme (say Civ 3 Edit) but, when you looked for them in the actual folder, they weren't there! Very bizarre. Something to do with hidden files and permissions. Scary stuff! Anyway, I believe I have now fixed all of that and did a test transferring to a friend's comp before uploading here.

    I'm looking forward to your feedback and findings on this. I know you've invested a lot of time and learning in the period and would be pleased to hear your comments.

    Blue Monkey: Hello. Thank you for the welcome back. We all crumble again eventually :lol: Very nice to see you popping in here and also your kind attendance to the Mughals scenario during my absence. Hope you have as much fun with this one!

    Regarding the magenta streaks: I have already noticed that it's on pure white and pure black. Anyone know a quick way of fixing this (aside from creating some kind of off white matte to lay over the image, which tends to have an adverse affect)?

    I've also noticed that it does happen with some pcxs and not others - even for the same unit/improvement/whatever. For example, it may appear on a large pedia icon for a wonder, but not on the wonder splash for the same thing.

    Kyriakos: Hello again! Nice to see you too. I did mooch around the forum to see what could be gathered for this scenario. I was pleasantly surprised to see what you've been up to. I do believe some I've used some of your city graphics in this one. If you see any gaps where your gfx may be used, do please give me a heads up. Maybe you could also correct me on any language errors too. I bet there are some real shockers around.
     
  11. Blue Monkey

    Blue Monkey Archon Without Portfolio

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2005
    Messages:
    10,845
    Location:
    Limbo (non-Landmark Virtual Aether)
    It's slight differences in the palettes between the various images. To correct it I would edit the affected palettes - just change the rgb numbers on the white & black. There will probably not be any noticable difference in the graphics - but the numbers will be enough different that the problem disappears.

    EDIT: Another possibility - one that has frequently happened in my icon making - is that the palette empties a few spaces when saving. In the programs I use those colors appear as black in the palette. This shifts the magenta & green out of the last two slots. Sometimes the problem won't be apparent unless you close the file, reopen & look at the palette. One solution is to edit the palette and fill those slots with unused colors, then swap the magenta & green to where they belong. Another solution is to surround the image with a multicolored gradient while it's still in rgb mode, reduce the palette, then crop the pcx to the correct size. That way the gradient fills the unused palette slots.
     
  12. RickFGS

    RickFGS Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,205
    Location:
    Lisboa, Portugal
    Looks to be a keeper, looking forward to playing it! Good Work!
     
  13. geminisama

    geminisama Resident Batman

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    419
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Been looking forward to a new epic scenario, so downloading right away!
     
  14. King Coltrane

    King Coltrane Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    NY
    Let me begin by saying this looks amazing! I'm excited to go into more depth with it!

    im VERY excited to see a scenario of this time period. its truly fascinating and i think your working version is highly impressive and polished already! I also like the first person narrative approach (a la herodotus). its a fresh take on the civilopedia that fits in perfectly with the era!

    based on a play through as Athens until about 800 BCE i have a few suggestions.

    First, I would change Sparta's unique unit. it is very weak compared to what other civs have and is no better than athens' swordsman. Granted, sparta eventually grew strong, but i never felt that they could beat me in a war.

    second, the philosophy tech does NOT seem to give a free technology, though in-game it says it does. the editor does not list this as an option either... so which is it? haha

    third, i cannot see any reason to use a monarchy vs a diarchy. I know historically most civs would have been monarchies, but this is not the case in game. perhaps a small wonder specific to monarchy available to all (or appropriate) civs would entice monarchy's use? similarly, maybe make "Agoge" or "Lycurgus's Reforms" or something similar a sparta specific small wonder that can only be used when in a diarchy. have it produce a "homoioi" or some similar super-spartan unit. This way the unit cannot be built normally, limiting its numbers, though still providing a powerful force for other civs to consider before fighting sparta.

    fourth, Argead Dynasty seems fairly impotent. palisades in every city? considering monarchy is potentially only 2 techs away from aqueducts, which would render palisades obsolete, this bonus is VERY shortlived. I feel like Macedon needs a better wonder (although admittedly their late units are outstanding)

    fifth, I would give the constitution of cleisthenes the "increases leader appearance" flag. as the democracy allowed for citizens such as militiades, themistocles, and pericles to rise to power, it makes sense to me...

    on a related note, for the democracy government, i would add "Eponymous Archon" as a potential title.

    sixth, the bonus resource silver doesnt actually add any value... should it? it seems like +2/3 commerce would make sense at least.

    seventh, i must admit that the reason i stopped playing was that the lag became more than i would have liked. i know some players dont mind (and in the right situations i dont either), but i was wondering if a "lite" map would be possible that removes everything north of Illyria, east of Chalkedon's BFC (and potentially add a one tile land bridge to connect it with the rest of anatolia), and south of crete? All the civs (except Phyrgia) would still be in place (and we could even move phrygia over if we had to or even add an unplayable persian civ that EXPLODES in the 5th century, and yes i realize that many anatolian civs have persian units). on a similar note, i would make the colonist more expensive. i agree that the lower pop cost makes sense, but increasing the shield cost would lessen the number of colonists going around.

    anyway, i would happily do this edit for you if you don't have a problem with it.

    Edit: i almost forgot! instead of calling all workers "helots", which specifically refers to the enslaved caste of sparta, why not use "doulos" which is greek for slave? i know not all of these workers are supposed to be slaves, but i get the sense that thats more or less what you were going for with helots as well.
     
  15. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    Blue Monkey: Thank you for all that info. I'm sure with all that you've suggested I'll be able to fix these icons so that they shine.

    RickFGS & geminisama: Welcome to the both of you. Thank you for dropping in and for posting too. It gives one strength after the countless hours locked into creating these things. I hope you'll both be kind enough to report back on your games, findings and thoughts?
     
  16. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    Awesome! I'm delighted!

    Yes, yes, we want suggestions. Nothing like peer review.

    I think the best thing is to not jump the gun with changes just yet, but certainly make copious notes with a view to doing so in good time. Hasty changes, I've found, are quickly reconsidered when the game is played from other perspectives and when those freak but crucial early game changing moves are not made, resulting in very different games. Making changes based on one game isn't a wise move in my experience.

    I also think it's important to stick to the first principles and ideas of the scenario at all times, but get a consensus going from folk who have played a few games from different perspectives, throw it all together, have a chit chat about it and then come out with a stronger piece.

    I can consider looking at this. It's certainly important. So, before jumping to things, let me first tell you what I think one needs to be wary of in changing it and also the idea behind it.

    Firstly, one needs to be careful not to make it too powerful compared to later units Sparta can build and other current ones like defenders. That simply renders the later units obsolete before they can be built, which is rather strange, blunts the appeal of moving on to better units and not satisfactory in my opinion. Similarly, if one were to beef up their defence, which is something I considered, I think it's a bit weird to have the one unit do it all and the defensive units to therefore become superfluous. So any changes here would have to be based on this I think.

    Therefore, if anything is to be done, it's got to be an increase in attack strength (but not to higher than Classical era units), hitpoints and/or lowering of cost - most of which I've employed already. We want them to be the early power house, but not run away with the whole thing before anyone else has gotten going.

    Secondly, the idea here is to go for numbers, as well as for strength. So, not only is the Spartan Xiphomakos more powerful than other swordsmen of its time - aside from the Asian Swordsman, it's stats do outstrip all other swordsmen, including the regular one fielded by Athens, and that +1HP bonus does make quite a difference - it's also 25% cheaper than all the other swordsmen. These are also the most frequently auto-produced units in the whole game, coming every 6 turns from The Great Rhetra. So they end up with a swarm of +1HP guys, who are able to attack and defeat all the best defenders of the Archaic Era. That's not too bad in my opinion!

    At the very most, they could get an extra hitpoint and an extra attack point, going up to 7 but not beyond. But, before jumping to things, I'd be interested to hear your qualification of the statement that you never felt Sparta could beat you in a war. Did you actually go to war with them? If so, what happened? I did as Athens and they were VERY difficult. I was doing so in the mid to late Classical Era and they basically went with swarms of the Spartan Xiphomakos and Spartan Hoplites. The Hoplites defended their swordsmen, which were then free to attack my stacks. And the fact they had numbers of them made things difficult. All in all, it was quite uncomfortable (still is!), becoming the expected war of attrition that very much distracted my Athenian resources away from other campaigns.

    That's a pedia entry error for Philosophy. The perils of using pre-existing stuff! I've made a note and it will be changed for next time. (The free techs come only from Wonders, namely The Olympian Temple of Zeus and Herodotus's Histories).

    I'm glad you're paying attention to this. Although I think the governments are ok as they are, this is an area I don't feel fully confident in in terms of AI behaviour and consequences. Here's the thinking behind it and the experience from test games:

    The first reason to use monarchy over diarchy is that you don't have communal corruption. This can make a difference to your core cities' productivity that you may not want.

    Also, there are some unique wonders that require Monarchy in order to be built, namely Croesus' Treasures and Argead Dynasty. I've seen both Lydia and Macedonia build these wonders in my test games. So the AI does go for it and you can check that they do use Monarchy by going to F3 and trying to inspect their armies.

    If anything, it's Diarchy that the AI seem to lay off using.
    That's what The Great Rhetra is and it auto-produces the Spartan Xiphomakos pretty frequently. But there were difficulties with tying it to Diarchy. I orginially had this as requiring Diarchy to be built, but Sparta never went for it. Why they didn't like Diarchy whilst other civs went for Monarchy is beyond me! Soon as I took off the government requirement, they built the Great Rhetra nice and early and pretty much without fail, resulting in...power!

    Yes, I think this may well need to be changed slightly. But only slightly.

    Macedonia are a civ that I haven't yet test played and getting their development balanced is a tricky thing. As things stand they seem to play ok from what I've seen. They remain powerful contenders throughout - though frequently in my test games become too embroiled with Thrace and Illyria, which isn't a bad thing I suppose. And they do really kick in hard in the late game, which is absolutely perfect.

    So this wonder is all about helping them fend off the Thracians and Illyrians really. I'm not entirely sure about what obsoletes the Palisades. Is it the Aqueduct tech itself? If so, I don't think this is a problem. I don't know if you've yet arrived in the Classical Era, but whenever I have it seems there are many much more sensible things to do than go straight for Aqueducts.

    Anyway, I think that maybe some auto-production of decent defensive units wouldn't be a bad idea for this unique wonder. Or maybe some barracks in all cities?

    Good notes. Athens' unique wonder is pretty souped up already, but this seems like a sensible change. I'll make a note.

    I'm especially keen to get as many appropriate titles for governments in there as possible. So keep those suggestions coming!

    Well spotted sir! This is a resource that once had a more significant use. So yes, something needs to happen with it and increased commerce is the obvious choice. I've held off for now because I generally feel the resources and luxuries are perhaps too powerful. One does find oneself awash in happiness and productivity and commerce at the moment (though this isn't the case for the backwater civs). Not a bad thing really but definitely want to be careful about taking it too far. Play some more and let me know whether you think it should be enhanced for commerce or simply axed.

    I'm glad you're thinking about this. Of all the things that need changing I think this - alongside the victory condition(s) - is the most important.

    I too have found the inbetween turns become a bit too much (but I still play on!!) and we need to get this down. So, something needs to be done and this is what I've been thinking the options are so far:

    ~ Remove some civs. Fewer civs = less processing = faster inbetween turns, as far as I understand.

    Those that I have earmarked for possible removal are:
    - Ithaka & Kerkyras (consequences will likely be: Aetolia expands onto their islands and fewer techs get traded early on - not too bad)
    - Mycenae (consequences will likely be: Argos and Corinth get a boost and the Peloponnese in general gets a hand up from less competition, if we can really call them that! - not too bad, but may be more significant that expected)
    - Chalkidike (consequences will likely be: Macedonia get an easier life, though this might be a case of them losing a handy little whipping boy - not too bad but need to be careful)
    - Troy (consequences will be: Aiolia gets a hand up with reduced competition and things become more historically accurate if a little less fun - I'm not seeing too much of a problem with this one)
    - Chersonesos (consequences will likely be: Thrace get too much room to expand into and they have a lot already - probably want to lay off this one).
    Doing any of this would need to be considered in conjunction with...

    ~ Making areas of the map impassable and non-settle-able.

    I've been thinking a lot about this option. My thoughts are to put a big band of swamp over the north of the map. So everything north of the Danube would be completely impassable. It'd be something like a 5 tile high band running from above Illyria right through to the Black Sea. (There might be an argument for placing some in Asia Minor too, though this might take away their competition for the Domination Victory).

    This would remove some luxuries and resources from the European barbaroi and also take the AI focus off the area, all of which I think wouldn't be a bad thing. It'd also chime with Herodotus to some extent: He thought that there was a vast tract of uninhabited land north of the Danube, citing only one bizarre Tracian tribe he had received reports of living there.

    This would also go some way to achieving what you're suggesting in terms of a "lite" map (which by the way I think is both too drastic and too much work). I just need to know from fellow modders whether doing something like this will get the processing down. It seems to make sense that it would. Maybe someone can go ahead and just try this with the swamp option and see how much of a difference it makes?

    ~ Anything else to reduce processing time?

    In terms of putting in an exploding Persian civ on the far south east - don't think I haven't pondered much on this option already! There is certainly an absence of Persia in this game currently. I initially had real problems with this. However, I've noticed from test playing that their absence does allow for more of a focus on Greek affairs, which is what this is all about really. I also think that, once the Persians have exploded you can't really put them back in the box so easily, as happened historically. So the whole dynamic between the Greeks in the late game would be lost. So having such a civ in there would completely change the whole focus, balance, purpose and dynamic of the game and it would also put people off wanting to play as any of the Asiatics. After all that effort you'd just get steamrollered. I think that, if the AI in Asia Minor can be tweaked so that one (Lydia, ideally) come out with all or most of Asia Minor, then we've got our contender already in this. With the Aesclepion improvement and all that land and luxuries, they are well set up for a domination victory, which the Greeks must consider. But it shouldn't be a cake walk for just one Asiatic civ, as this would reduce variety of play options in that region. In short, I have though a lot about this, but it's a mighty drastic move with mighty drastic consequences!
    Yes, this seems sensible and I've made a note on this. Will likely do it. Let me know what you think of this once you've had a few late game experiences. If anything, I've found that there's little need for colonists in the late game as most of the map is settled by then anyway. So, if anything, they should be axed, unless there's seen to be a value for them in terms of raizing cities and resettling the land (which is something I like to do).

    That's very kind and exciting. I'm open to this. I would consel that you wait for now. Play a few more games from different perspectives and let's see what others have to say too. That way you won't charge into making hard work for yourself and better changes will come from the wisdom of others.

    This is exactly the kind of feedback needed. I've made a note. Thank you!
     
  17. Sir Karnizer

    Sir Karnizer Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    España
    Hello Rambuchan.

    First I want to congratulate you and thank you for this promising scenario.:goodjob:
    I've started playing with Sparta and called my attention that the Spartan Logchoforos costs only 15 shields. Is this intentional?
     
  18. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    Hello Sir Karnizer. My thanks to you for your kind words and response.

    I too think this has much promise and is already a good play as it is. Having been through the motions before with a scenario, I can just feel these things. I'm hoping good folk like yourself will report back so the next version really sings.

    Yes, the Spartan Logchoforos is supposed to be half the cost of everyone else's Archaic Era defender (and upgradeable to their Hoplite). All part of the plan to allow Sparta to amass lots of troops. I may have gone too far with it. Maybe 20 would have been better. Let me know how it goes and your thoughts on the matter and we can look at changing that.
     
  19. geminisama

    geminisama Resident Batman

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    419
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but you can irrigate hills in this scenario.
     
  20. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    13,560
    Location:
    London, England
    When I began slaving away at this many months ago there was a reason for that. Can't for the life of me remember what now. Is it really a terrible thing?

    Anyone feel like offering a game report with suggestions please? After months of near relentless work, I'm itching to hear how it's going for people and also keen to make more notes for the improved next version.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page