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Heldeofol development thread

Discussion in 'Éa Fantasy Mod Project' started by Pazyryk, Jun 16, 2014.

  1. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    These guys are next on the agenda (after more bug and balance fixing of course). If you happen to have tried the first prototype build in phase I, they were there. But they've been hidden away in the code (disabled) ever since due to lack of units. Thanks to Nomad or What and several other unit artists, that is no longer the case!

    From the manual:

    Heldeofol is a composite of races—orcs, goblins, hill giants, ogres, trolls and the like—that differ in many ways but are generally violent, misshapen and short-lived. Though they are as likely to fight each other as Man, they sometimes band together into cities and nations that can be called civilization (generously speaking). Heldeofol start with Mining and Deep Mining. They are fecund and have accelerated city growth and settler production. However, their cities are severely limited, producing only buildings that support expansion and conquest. Heldeofol units that achieve victory in battle confer culture at the unit's city of origin, and can sometimes convert barbarian units of their own kind. Heldeofol civilizations generally produce Warriors as great people, though Engineers sometimes arise from the orc forges. Fallen Thaumaturges from other civilizations sometimes (for reasons known only to them) join and lead Heldeofol civilizations. Other Great People are very rarely seen.

    I'll list out various mechanics in bullet point format. Some are well-thought out. Others maybe not so much.
    • Faster natural growth. Cities have 70% food after growth (Man has 50% and Sidhe 30%). Faster settler building too.
    • Can build the no-prereq Warrens building giving (tentatively) +3f. This should push them a little in the ICS direction but not too much (that will take some work to balance).
    • Shorter lifespans. Nominal lifespan for Orcs and Goblins is 50 and 60 yrs, compared to 80 for Man. (Good reason to use Lead Charge!)
    • Can't build the majority of buildings in mod, but only a small subset related to expansion and conquest (and a couple other special cases). This will prevent them from ever excelling in culture or technology compared to other races. It is also the main reason why they will never generate a Merchant, Sage or Artist from GP points. (They can still get one from 2nd policy in Tradition or Commerce, but that's a big commitment.)
    • Fallen Thaumaturges that flee other civs (because they have been destroyed or renounced Maleficium) will often join a Heldeofol civ. A player can make this much more likely by arranging to be fallen themselves and generating Thaumaturge GP points (which you can do by learning Maleficium and building Pharmakeia). These casters come with their own spells, so can be powerful even if the Heldeofol civ isn't advanced in arcane techs.
    • There will be a Pantheistic playstyle, though it will be rare for AI players. Shaman will replace Druid.
    • Orc Infantry line (which includes Warriors, L, M, H Inf, and Immortals) are all +1 strength compared to equivalent units of other races. Only Orc and Goblin units can be trained in cities (but see capture below).
    • Heldeofol armies can capture units of their "own kind" from other civs and from barbs. Own kind would include Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Ogres, Nagas and other similar humanoid races when added, but not barbs of the race of Man (Wildmen, Horse Tribes, Elephant Tribes and Pirates).
    • Heldeofol armies won't destroy barb encampments of their own kind. When they move onto these encampments, they will get the gold bonus (once only) but the encampment will remain. Note that only Orc & Goblin units are buildable in cities, so this is the way they get units of "other Heldefol races."
    • They have far fewer Civ Naming events from techs and policies than the other two races. There will be maybe a dozen or so linked to more militaristic techs and the Militarism policy branch (and maybe a couple others like Maleficium).
    • They will have one special naming mechanic, however. When they kill their first non-animal unit, a Warrior GP will spawn (as leader if they don't have one already). If the civ is not already named from above, then it will take a name like "Clan of Yrd" named after the GP that spawns.
    • Just like Sidhe, they are locked out of Divine Liturgy tech and Theism policy branch (although if Fallen they can open Anti-Theism).
    • Heldeofol don't use Horses (except to eat). They can build pasture but won't be able to trade or use the strategic resource. The entire top row tech branch (Horseback Riding -> -> War Horses) won't be visible for Heldeofol players. It will be replaced by Wolf Riding -> -> War Wargs.
    • The bottom tech branch (Deep Mining -> Deep Farms -> ->) is open to all Heldeofol civs. This will open up Mountains for development. For a start, Deep Mines and Deep Farms will be built similar to the way camps and fishing/whaling boats work now. That is, the plot is claimed and the improvement occurs as a result of a city build. [Note: once we develop this branch I'll add the Úr civ, which are Man or Sidhe first to research Deep Mining and the only non-H civ that can go further in this branch.]
    • Oh... almost forgot. Goblin recon units become Wolf Rider or Warg Rider if they defeat a wolf or warg. Of course.

    This section in the manual is also relevant for capturing cities of other races (or other races capturing Heldeofol cities):

    Civilization race and city race
    These two are not necessarily the same. Civilization race is chosen at game start and is permanent. City race is determined at city founding and is permanent for the city regardless of conquest. In general, a city trains units of its own race, so a Heldeofol city will produce Orc Infantry, Goblin Archers, and so on, even if the owning civilization is of a different race. In contrast, building construction is restricted by both civilization and city race. For example, Heldeofol have a race restriction against building libraries. This means that a Heldeofol civilization can’t build libraries in any city it owns (regardless of city race), and civilizations of any other races can’t build a library in a city they have conquered of race Heldeofol. Furthermore, all race-prohibited buildings taken by conquest will be pillaged for gold over a number of turns. A civilization can build settlers only in cities that share the civilization's race, so unconquered cities are always of the founding civilization’s own race.


    Well, I think that's all. I'll update if I remember something I forgot.
     
  2. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Hey. Couple days ago i was thinking about those "orcs" to come and wondering whether you were going only for the tolkieneske "servants of the dark one" orcs or considering the second, shamanic archetype.
    Something i imagined : a pantheistic cult that only Heldeofol can develop, with Temples to dead GP (think ancestor worship). Those temples would have better bonuses based on the level of the dead GP.
     
  3. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Pantheism is still very much the same worldview, with a focus on the divine spirits of the land. Shamans will be essentially the same as Druids, except they will be locked out of several Cults. The Forest, Earth and Desert themed cults will be open, at least. But they will be able to call animals, tree-ents and (eventually) Major Spirits, and it should be a viable approach to One with Nature (they could leverage their growth and military advantage to overcome Ag civs).

    The difficult "design issue" about this branch for Heldeofol is that they are supposed to be extremely limited on culture, deriving it primarily from unit kills. But Pantheism is such a good culture generator that it could easily become "required" in the eyes of players. There may be some harsh mechanic needed here, such as allowing them all benefits except the culture boosts.
     
  4. tecumseh23

    tecumseh23 Chieftain

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    Been wondering when these guys would be added. Sounds like they'll be pretty great! The fallen thaumaturges are a nice touch.

    One thing though: the nagas don't seem to fit in with the orcs and goblins. Might just be me, but they're not really...orcish enough.
     
  5. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    Maybe Trolls instead?
     
  6. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Yeah. I kind of have the same thought. Perhaps they are too xenophobic and arrogant to work with dirty Orcs and Goblins. Or too smart. The other races are big brutes, so maybe we should have only Hobgoblins and Ogres (from the existing races), and then Hill Giants and Trolls (and similar) if added later.
     
  7. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Do pantheistic Heldeofol get culture from destroying agrarian improvements?

    I agree that naga seem slightly out of place among them.
     
  8. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Well, my idea was that they would believe their greatest heroes could become spirits themselves and it would give their GP an additional level of uniqueness. Then you like the idea or not, it's your mod :)

    Lots if culture in pantheism yep. If some part of it is Lua coded(wilderness), you can check for Heldeofol race before adding it. For resources culture, it might require some dummy building that "adds" negative culture to those resources. Not pretty but could work.
     
  9. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    Still seems interesting.
    However it seems to me that you limit a lot the Heldeofol gameplay.
    limited culture, buildings blocked (so limited culture version 2, limited science... ) limted GP : limited actions...Etc

    maybe instead of mostly forbidding them things to do, give them things that play into their lore but that would allow them to get away from the "big orc with sword" game. (a scientist heldeofol will still be very war-like and only as-much scientist as any half-assed human, but it will be 2-3 times more scientist than most heldeofol...)

    plus having buildings race-UU instead of simply being baned of it is IMO more fun.

    it might be more interesting if you could still play "educated heldeofol" if you want to put in the effort... you'll be less likely to win as it will be less efficient, but you can.
    like you can give them 150% tech maintenance but not limit the scientific buildings?

    or they could get alternative buildings : library: tricks-storehouse : +5%science in city, +5%food (instead of libray's +10%)
    ....

    or shamans get a sub-class that overlaps as a "mix of druid and scientist"... like a half scientist. or it gives an aura to nearby units that give 1/2/5 (or mod/2) science per kill... as the curious shaman is here to study the ennemy.

    and/or they could get heldeofol-only pantheist cults...

    I might come up with other ideas
     
  10. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    The Heldeofol races generally follow the pattern of bigger = stupider. Maybe we could have a civ where the Goblins kick out the other races and form a sort of science or commerce focused civ. It would have to be a trade-off though. Loose access to big units in exchange for all or most buildings. Maybe something like that down the road...

    (Or we could go the opposite way, an Ogre civ that can't even build most of the H-allowed buildings...)
     
  11. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Yep, could be fun :)
     
  12. BrokenSky

    BrokenSky Warlord

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    Buildings suggestions:
    It might be nice to gain generally, but related to a Heldeofol tall (or at least Normal distribution) strategy: slums requires pop of 7/10/12 for Heldeofol/Human/Sidhe, maybe -2 with slavery or agreanism or something?, giving -1 health, -50% unhappiness from population, +1 pop protected from disease (disease can only lower the population to 2, not 1 by default).

    Warcamp: improvement built automatically on barbarian camps after the tribal alliance tech? policy? is researched. units spawned here are now automatically gited to the player, giving similar messages to when a unit is gifted by a militaristic CS.

    Maybe give Heldeofol civ based policies give more buildings than man or sidhe policies?

    Great Flame Shrine: requires: 1 timber, gives 5 culture, 2 happiness, artist slot.

    Heldeofol GP Artists cannot build the epics man and sidhe can, and produce 2/3 culture from performing, but while performing provide a small bonus (1/3 of would be culture)% production bonus for units.
    They have access to a group of epics unique to Heldeofol.

    Tribal Council: has a slot for an artist, an adept and one other specialist. I'm not sure. Cannot be built in the capital (it's the city's local government). +1 culture, +1 science, +1 happiness.

    Cheif's Council: has a slot for an artist, an adept and the same other specialist. Can only be built in the capital. +1 culture, +1 science, +2 happiness, allows GPs to join the counsel, granting a small civ wide bonus, similar to leadership, but greatly lessened. Max number of GPs on council = leader's leadership mod / 3.
     

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