Helicopters gain ability to move on coastal and lake tiles

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by PsychoticSquid, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. PsychoticSquid

    PsychoticSquid Chieftain

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    As per thread title.

    I know helicopters are classified as cavalry but they should gain an ability that allows them to move freely in coastal and lake tiles without having to revert to a ship. They should still have to transition to a ship on a city or harbour tile when they target a deeper sea tile for movement as with any other land-based unit, though.

    I don't forsee this breaking them as a unit, but if anyone has any suggestions as to why this should never be the case I'd like to hear them.
     
    Quoth the Raven, Lynnes and matt91486 like this.
  2. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    No reason not to. And yeah, having them switch to being embarked in ocean tiles would be a nice tradeoff to at least make sure they can't just be used like a naval vessel.
     
  3. Lynnes

    Lynnes King

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    Fully agree, helicopters that can hover over coastal and lake tiles was standard for me in Civ5 (achieved through PNM-mods, worked very good), and if that would be possible in Civ6 as well, that would be great!
     
  4. Elucidus

    Elucidus King

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    I have more a problem with units becoming a ship than anything else. I wish I could force the game to return to the days of the transport, but I wonder if the AI would know what to do with them? Maybe since that is how aircraft carriers work.
     
  5. RealAntithesis

    RealAntithesis Warlord

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    If we had to have classes, then helicopters should be their own class (then have different units for later eras after helicopters become available). They should not be 'cavalry' (i.e. horses or tanks) at all. Why Firaxis did this, I will never know. Even game concepts need to make some sort of sense in the real world. Otherwise we get threads like this with people expressing disbelief.

    Helicopters should be able to travel over lakes, seas and mountains without movement penalties (except maybe over mountains), (maybe) should have a range or fuel to prevent them from going too far around the world before needing to land in an owned or allied city (or aircraft carrier, airstrip etc), should have a combat bonus against land units (maybe different helicopters with bonuses against tanks, infantry or naval units), but are vulnerable against fighter aircraft or units with anti-air capability, and can attack cities, but can't capture them. The promotion tree would be unique to the helicopter class and definitely not be the same as the current light cavalry tree.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2017
    PsychoticSquid likes this.
  6. Quoth the Raven

    Quoth the Raven Warlord

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    Agree, except they should not be able to end their turn on a coast or lake tile.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    ... Or fight on a coastal tile?
    They are deemed a land unit, not an air unit and as such there woukd need to be exceptions put in place.
    Yes it just makes sense a heli shoukd be able to do those things but its a small thing with posdible implications also.
     
  8. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    Helicopters that can fly over water? What magic is this?
     
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  9. diamond geezer

    diamond geezer Warlord

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    Suggested this in another thread...
     
  10. Elucidus

    Elucidus King

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    This was like this in Civ4 as I recall, maybe it was 3. Event hough they still had transports then, they acted like cavalry, so it is not new. But I agree there should be something like a hover class. Perhaps we can make it able to go a certain distrance from the civ borders or a carrier.
     
  11. Lynnes

    Lynnes King

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    One interesting thing is, that in Civ5 water tiles are realistically animated, when a helicopter is hovering over them. So the devs must at least had plans to allow it.
    Hopefully this time it will make it into vanilla.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  13. Jarms48

    Jarms48 Prince

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    I wouldn't mind them being able to cross oceans and lakes, as long as they end their turn on land. I wouldn't also mind if they could attack into oceans and lakes, as long as the move doesn't end their turn in said terrain.
     
  14. RealAntithesis

    RealAntithesis Warlord

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    Except that attacking something on water will probably end the helicopter's turn on water. Perhaps they should find land on the next turn (or they crash...).
     
  15. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    You could always just give them something like a -17 penalty when defending on a water tile. Then they could attack and stay on water, but would be really vulnerable to counter-attack.
     
  16. PsychoticSquid

    PsychoticSquid Chieftain

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    I think having them able to fully perform on an actual sea tile would devalue naval units. This is the main reason why my original suggestion was that they should still have to embark to go to sea, but they could have their own unique niche where they retain effectiveness in coastal or lake tiles, true to their real-life counterparts. I think if there are any changes to units, it should be done with balancing in mind, and ensuring that existing niches filled by other units aren't being trampled. The battlefield should enjoy varied unit types with overlapping strengths and vulnerabilities on display. Allowing helicopters to move across sea (even from land to land) or making them able to attack sea-faring units could not only upset the role of naval units but also potentially that of normal aircraft, in my mind.

    Mind you, I wrote this suggestion before somebody pointed out that apparently embarked units keep their original stats. I still haven't tested this yet but if they do, the idea that they have to embark seems redundant (apart from taking one turn to embark or disembark). First and foremost, I want to see embarked units be much more vulnerable in combat, in particular to naval units. I'd also like to see their movement capped, so a fast unit can't jet across the ocean quicker than a slower unit - after all, they'd have the same ships.
     
  17. Elucidus

    Elucidus King

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    You can give versions of the helicopter penalties when over water and/or fighting certain ships. I think allowing them to go a few tiles over water seems organic, in fact, there are several helicopters designed specifically for taking out ships/subs.

    Balancing and gameplay should always be in mind, but like in real life, there are counters and counters to counters, there should be no end all be all unit.

    And this is a major pet-peeve of mine. I wish we could go back to actually using transports, having to build them and all. It means having to protect them properly or risk using much more than just one unit.
     
  18. Lynnes

    Lynnes King

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    I must say that I really don't like any kind of movement restrictions/ penalities, because

    1. the AI must fully understand and utilize it
    2. it must be intuitive and easily understandable gameplay for players

    Therefore I'd go for the approach to make them behave more like real air units. This is what players would expect and it means

    -they cannot capture cities
    -they are affected by Anti Air

    Now when you would also grant AA capabilities to Aircraft Carriers (they really should have them, just like their real world counterparts), three different ship types with AA (Destroyer, Missile Cruiser, Aircraft Carrier) would make sea tiles a dangerous enough place for helicopters, so it would in no way be a replacement or a huge threat for naval units.
    Also it is a mechanic that the AI does understand and utilize, just as it should try to avoid attacking AT with Tanks if possible.

    More restrictions would just be a hassle imo.
     

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