Hell spread overseas?

[skallben]

How does this mechanics work?
Im cleansing it over and over and over but it still pops up on my shorelines. It almost seems like there is "invisible" hell on the sea squares spreading to my lands.

 

[Senethro]

I thought that was the case?

 

[skallben]

Thad doesnt make sense, how am I supposed to fight something that I cannot see?

 

[Dead Flag]

I'd like to see some sort of 'fog' effect that spreads out over the ocean, because it just seems odd that water isn't affected by the spread of hell.

 

[BCalchet]

Perhaps by lowering the Armageddon counter, stationing adepts along the affected shoreline, turning good-aligned through the Order, or even cleansing the sea using boats with adepts?

You can also accept hell and live with it in your lands.

 

[xienwolf]

Could water walk mages out to sea as well to cleanse it. But that still leaves him with the problem of not knowing WHICH sea squares to cleanse/recleanse.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Hell does spread through the seas just like land, there is just no difference between the hell and normal version of the water tiles so far. That is why I have been insisting for months that hell's oceans be introduced.


Kael and the team didn't want to make different water tiles, because they envisioned hell's seas as fiery red or something, and didn't like the idea of normal, blue rivers flowing into red seas (the game does not have the ability to have multiple types of graphics for rivers). Of course, I constantly pointed out that the sea of hell is already mentioned in a civilopedia entry (of the wraith unit), and isn't red but black. I didn't think that rivers would be a problem, but that it might be a better idea just to make rivers in hell all dry up. I think I finally convinced them a few weeks ago, but hell's seas haven't been added yet (it will probably wait until Shadow).

They aren't actually sure that it is possible to add multiple ocean types (Apparently dealing with peaks and water tiles is a bit complicated. Some of the info seems to be hard coded in files which modders can't access), but are experimenting with adding features (perhaps an impassible feature like ice, but looking more like like the tar tar demons are made of) when water tiles pass the threshold and become hell tiles.

Another suggestion I made (which seemed to be ignored), is that each tile's actual counter that determines if a tile is hell or not (by default, values >20 are hell. Hyborem's lands are always @ 100, Basium's always at 0, every one else's varies based an such things as alignment and the current AC) always be visible alongside the terrain type/improvement/resources/yield info when you mouse over the tile. That would let you know where hell is, and where it will be soon. It would let you sanctify in advance, so as not to loose your ancient forests when they enter hell (for example).

 

[skallben]

Good to hear you have plans for this allready. Im sailing around with Galleons loaded with Wizards like mad and it's just a mess to try and stop it. Looking forward to see the changes

 

[Nikis-Knight]

You're not really intended to use sanctify adepts as fire-fighters. That's treating the symptoms. The Hell terrain is a graphical reminder that the forces of evil are probably growing in power, go after them if you want to stop it! (though I did hear razing AV cities might be bugged right now?)
A more strategic use of sanctify would be removing the hell terrain under some demon units before attacking, so that they lose thier +10% std. bonus when in hell. Or casting on city ruins to lower the counter, or else keeping one area clear, perhaps. But cleansing all your lands is intended to be a losing proposition.

 

[skallben]

You're not really intended to use sanctify adepts as fire-fighters. That's treating the symptoms. The Hell terrain is a graphical reminder that the forces of evil are probably growing in power, go after them if you want to stop it! (though I did hear razing AV cities might be bugged right now?)
A more strategic use of sanctify would be removing the hell terrain under some demon units before attacking, so that they lose thier +10% std. bonus when in hell. Or casting on city ruins to lower the counter, or else keeping one area clear, perhaps. But cleansing all your lands is intended to be a losing proposition.

All of those things I have allready done. Hyborem is banished. Im trying to contain the aftermath but it spread overseas like wildfire.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

hmmm, really? I thought hell left once the Infeernals were gone. Maybe I'm mis-remembering...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Nope. Hell terrain doesn't start until the Infernals arrive, but it doesn't leave with them (although their demise will lower the AC, often significantly enough to make hell withdraw, especially for a good player. Evil players may still have some problems)


Just wondering, what controls the spread of hell when the "Consecrated Ground" option is selected. I had assumed that it wouldn't spread, but in my last game with this options I (AV Svartalfar, with several xml changes of my own like including BtS's espionage system and allowing Ritualists to upgrade to Archmages) researched Infernal pact and killed off the Infernals a few turns latter with an HN Mardero and noticed it kept spreading. It never got near my main cities (probably because I got bored and quit after my HN summons had wiped out all civs on my continent), and actually helped me out a little (turning most of my horses to nightmares). I'm assuming that with this option only AV players will ever experience hell.

 

[skallben]

Can't "Hellfire" event trigger hell spread without Infernals being in the game?

 

[cephalo]

Kael and the team didn't want to make different water tiles, because they envisioned hell's seas as fiery red or something, and didn't like the idea of normal, blue rivers flowing into red seas (the game does not have the ability to have multiple types of graphics for rivers)

Might the effect be created with a feature that exist on water? Maybe you could make it just look like boiling water?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, features exist on tiles, but rivers run between them. Features could be used for Hell's Oceans, but I don't think it would work for the rivers. I think they are just planning to make the spread of hell destroy rivers, giving us one more reason to want to prevent it (since I assume the rivers wouldn't return after hell has receded, the land would never be as good as it was before)

(I would actually like to see the spring spell have a chance to create new rivers, rather than always just upgrading the tile, starting at that point and running to the sea, with their associated floodplanes if it crosses through deserts. This could make up for the possible lack of rivers in a post-hell late game.)

 

[Dead Flag]

That's a good idea Magister! Or at least we could have a different spell that does the same job.

 

[Thonnas]

I think an oil slicked water would suffice as dark water. Mechanic-wise: giving -1 food and perhaps creating a small amount of damage on entering the tile such that standard ships couldn't survive a journey through a significant expanse of dark water. Arcane barges and ghost ships are possible exceptions.

 

[zxcvbnm]

I think that all hell terrain should have -1 food, as it seems irrational for huge human cities to thrive on hell terrain, which should be harsh and deadly for all but demons and undead. That would make the infernals fallow trait more powerful as they would be the only ones who can have larger cities in hell, but then hell should start appearing much later or slower.
Usually in my games hyborem comes when AC is 10-30 and the blight is at 40, seems strange

 

[skallben]

I think that all hell terrain should have -1 food, as it seems irrational for huge human cities to thrive on hell terrain, which should be harsh and deadly for all but demons and undead. That would make the infernals fallow trait more powerful as they would be the only ones who can have larger cities in hell, but then hell should start appearing much later or slower.
Usually in my games hyborem comes when AC is 10-30 and the blight is at 40, seems strange

I percieved that as if it is Judgement Day approaching. Hyborem is rather weak until things start to get wild in my experience, in my games he needed the world in chaos to grow in the dark corners to attain the real power.

 

[zxcvbnm]

I percieved that as if it is Judgement Day approaching. Hyborem is rather weak until things start to get wild in my experience, in my games he needed the world in chaos to grow in the dark corners to attain the real power.

The problem is that hyborem should start in a dark corner and not in the middle of everything as often happens in my games.
He usually comes to some unsettled place between 8 powerful empires, in one game infernals started on an ice plateau in the middle of Bannor (my) lands and got destroyed the next turn

If the hell terrain is bad for humans then logically sacrifice the weak can help a bit but the AV guys who get it first are still handicapped