Help a Civics Noob

[Tacgnol]

So I think I've been doing pretty well for myself, I've come miles from the total n00b I was when I first started coming here, but I still have plenty of room for improvement. I like to think of myself as a rather brilliant tactitian, and I get by fine economically, but I'm only winning on prince (and losing on monarch), so I must be doing something wrong.

Anyway, when I first got civ 4, there were some things I totally missed, I thought slavery was terrible because I didn't want to whip my people, I totally underappreciated the value of cottages, and I thought Protective and Imperialistic were overpowered while Organized and Philosophical were jokes. Since then, I've seen the errors of my ways, and while I seem to be doing fine now, I have realized that the civics that seem, to me, completely pointless might be overpowered in their own right.

First off, government civics. HR is great, but obsoleted by modern options, and PS is absolutely invaluable in modern warfare. Representation is ridiculously strong, so much stronger than US that it seems like a complete no-brainer. The hammer bonus from US is nice, but even running a pure CE with a NP city and another GP farm the bonus from Representation outweighs it by miles. Now, the gold-rush is extremely nice as a spiritual leader, where you can swap to US, rush what you need, and go back to Rep, but for a non-Spiritual without CR there is no way swapping is going to pay off. And if I stay in US, I need to jack my science way up to make up for the loss from specialists, so I have no money to spend on rushing.

Legal civics seem fine to me, I can see the great uses each one has, but labor seems nearly as bad as government. Obviously emancipation sucks but you're pretty much stuck with it once 3-4 other civs get it. Anyway, I absolutely love slavery, I can't get through the classical and middle ages without it. Caste system, well, I guess I can see the value, but (assuming non-spiritual leader) there is absolutely no way I am even going to consider giving up slavery for it. Serfdom just seems pointless. OK, a 50% worker buff is nice, but in the middle ages I generally have more than enough time to catch up with my infrastructure, and by the early renaissance I have twenty workers wandering around building roads in every last tundra while they wait for lumber mills. On top of that, I'd lose the OPness of slavery, which is irreplaceable.

Economy civics were stupid pre-BTS, SP was godmode, but now that we have corporations it seems pretty well balanced with free trade. Mercantilism can be nice in a large empire pre-Astronomy (I usually play hemispheres), but seems very situational. My main beef with the economy civics is Environmentalism. Now, were it available with, say, Sci Meth, it would be amazing, I'd sell my soul for the health in the early industrial age before supermarkets and hospitals, but by the time it becomes available the health crisis has ended and recycling plants make the industrial balancing act a thing of the past. I have never used Environmentalism, I have never even seriously considered it, and while I'm sure I'm wrong I don't see myself ever using it.

Anyway, now that I've written my essay about civics, I would appreciate it if someone would come and tell me in gory detail why I'm wrong. I'm sure I am, and I'm sure each civic has its glory, but until some wise Civ gods give me an explanation I can understand I'm afraid I will continue with my foolish ways.

 

[assass1n]

dont even bother with Environmentalism it sucks
FM is much better as compared to SP but it depends on the map
Even I used to think Slavery was worthless and a waste of time when I started Civ 4 but now I dont seem to ever get out of Slavery for the whole game

 

[Iranon]

Representation is great, but if you build a cottage on every elegible non-resource tile, Universal Suffrage is likely to be better. With the Kremlin and the right civics, mature towns produce the equivalent of 4.5 hammers, beating almost everything else in production (possible exceptioin: farms for whipping, also with the Kremlin) if needed. Or tons of research with enough production to get the essentials done if that's what you need.

At this point non-Rep specialists are patently unexciting... so I'd check whether I can shuffle tiles around so my food resources support food-deficit tiles and cottage over spare farms. Heck, even cottaging over resources might be reasonable in some cases if we wish to run Emancipation instead of Slavery.

***

I agree on the usefulness of Slavery... best way into production in the early and arguably the late game (2--farms, Kremlin-assisted whips... oh my), but there is a bit of a lull in the midgame. Since this is often a time where a heavy emphasis on specialists is strong, Caste System is attractive and workshops that are actually worth building on occasion can fill the hole somewhat.

***

Mercantilism can be nice if you're at war or otherwise on uncivil terms with the AIs, you wish to emphasise relative rather than absolute tech speed (if you have more land or are playing on high levels, trade is likely to benefit the AIs more than you) or you get tired of displaced corporations. Niche uses, but often worthy of consideration.

Environmental windmills are a strong contender for the best improvement in the game (imo they are THE best, narrowly beating watermills under State Property and Towns with all the frills).

In an extremely compact empire that doesn't need State Property and lacks the resources to make corporation upkeep (if we use them at all) relevant, Envrionmentalism might have some use... especially if it's in hilly terrain and/or we planned ahead for an awesome National Park city.

Still, most of the time the endgame is a choice between Free Market and State Property.

 

[T-hawk]

Representation is great, but if you build a cottage on every elegible non-resource tile, Universal Suffrage is likely to be better. With the Kremlin and the right civics, mature towns produce the equivalent of 4.5 hammers, beating almost everything else in production

Even more than that. I assume your 4.5 number is the one hammer from US, plus 7 commerce divided by 2 for Kremlin-enhanced rushing. But that commerce goes through 100% multiplier buildings (200% for Wall Street) and can produce 7 hammers (8 total counting US.)

Heck, even cottaging over resources might be reasonable in some cases if we wish to run Emancipation instead of Slavery.

Definitely. Lots of resource yields become pretty weak in the later game. I routinely cottage over dyes, spices, ivory, and deer. (A Deer camp is no better than a Biology farm, so the farm/cottage question there is exactly the same as for any other tile.)

Environmental windmills are a strong contender for the best improvement in the game (imo they are THE best, narrowly beating watermills under State Property and Towns with all the frills).

Here I gotta disagree. An Environmental windmill is what, 2-2-4 total on grassland or 1-3-4 on plains? That's nice, but not spectacular. I'll take 3-2-3 or 2-3-3 from an SP watermill over that. For both cases, it's trading 1 commerce for 1 food. 1 food is worth more, since a specialist can turn that 1 food into at least 1.5 cash or beakers.

In an extremely compact empire that doesn't need State Property and lacks the resources to make corporation upkeep (if we use them at all) relevant, Envrionmentalism might have some use... especially if it's in hilly terrain and/or we planned ahead for an awesome National Park city.

One-City Challenge, which of course is the ultimate in compact empire. You'll most likely build the NP there. SP's draw disappears and FM's single trade route is pretty minimal. But with little land to claim health resources, and a huge city, the Environmentalism health looks pretty attractive indeed.

 

[nbcman]

Regarding Mercantilism, it can be useful when you have multiple vassals. You can still have trade routes to your vassals when you are in mercantilism. It is a situational civic but very useful when the AI civs are in mercantilism themselves or when the other AIs will not open borders.

 

[Iranon]

@ T-hawk:

Re towns for production: I was only counting raw yields... hammers can have 100% modifiers too, although it should be noted that those come later and are associated with .

Re windmills: Maybe a slight misunderstanding there - best improvement vs. best tile. The tile elegible for watermills will have better base yields unless we're comparing riverside plains vs. riverside grassland hills. Just regarding the improvements themselves... windmills give 2 more commerce, 1 production less which I'd say is a fair trade-off.
The reason why I rate superior windmills slightly higher is that mines (the only alternative on plains hills) usually aren't too strong in the late game while flatland tiles have excellent alternatives with towns and, under the right circumstances, farms.

 

[slobberinbear]

I have tried mightily to get some use out of Serfdom. Here are some situations where I have found it helpful.

In some games (particularly as a protective civ) I beeline/Oracle Feudalism for longbows and vassalage. This also makes serfdom available much sooner than normal, for me anyway. Since I already have Hereditary Rule at that point, I now have theoretically eliminated happy caps and am now only limited to grow up to my available food and the health cap. In this situation, I am growing our cities hard and whipping is counterproductive. Serfdom is also handy here because of the large population -- every city needs to get all of its workable tiles worked ASAP.

So yeah, in that situation I can easily see running HR/Vassalage/Serfdom, at least until the improvements are mostly done, then switching into Caste System.

Re: Representation, the arguments about SE vs. CE are endless. I would only point out that if you get cottages going early and grow them, US > Representation by the start of the late game. A transition economy may be a good fit for you, using the cottage growth bonuses of Emancipation/Free Speech (I forget which one does that at the moment ).

One of the weak parts of my game is understanding and using State Property, workshops and watermills. Anyone with a link to an instructional thread on this subject would be appreciated. Not to threadjack, but specifically what cities/situations scream SP, workshops, and/or watermills?

 

[T-hawk]

Re windmills: Maybe a slight misunderstanding there - best improvement vs. best tile. The tile elegible for watermills will have better base yields unless we're comparing riverside plains vs. riverside grassland hills.

Got it. Yeah, an Environmentalism windmill is the best thing you can do with a hill on plains, desert, or tundra. Grass hills usually get cottaged in the late game (along with everything else. Food to support them usually comes from Sushi or Cereal.)