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Help against "giants"

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by henyo10, Sep 23, 2009.

  1. henyo10

    henyo10 Warlord

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    There is literally a giant in my game, charlemagne, who has 4 vassals and like almost 20 cities and unfortunately for me dows on me. My God, he has 3 stacks worth of 25 units each although purely made of cannons and medieval troops purely overwhelmed my 20 unit stack of riflemen and cannons. He took two of my best cities and my two other vassals aren't doing jack since I am at the frontier of the war. I'm bleeding my colonies dry of draftees just to support the war effort against this giant. My question is what do I do now?
     
  2. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    When you start to loose core cities the game will often be lost, but without a save it's hard to say. You should probably buy peace if you can.
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Try not to allow someone to take 4 vassals.

    Alternatively, capture enough land to compete.

    Finally, build an army that is at least 3/4 of his, and abuse siege initiative to shred his stack (be sure to make enough cannons).

    75 units on the offensive will struggle a lot against 50 in their own territory, because the latter get to pick when to attack and cause collateral, and that's a big advantage. In renaissance try to work in some cavalry too if fighting at parity. Pinch cavalry holds up well against rifles in the field, utterly dominates cannons, and will do OK vs other cavalry after even a little collateral attrition.

    Airships come a little later but they can take the edge off, too.
     
  4. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    To answer: you should have left him to take a city of yours without defending it. Then maul it w/ the cannons... and wipe his entire stack that would be residing in there.
     
  5. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    That's a good one, I should try it next time Mansa or Zara tries to stumple me :)
    I had thought of it, but only now I realize, that way I'll actually have advantage.
    Shall lure him into city that is not on a hill... :D:D:D
     
  6. Rowie007

    Rowie007 Chieftain

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    I agree with this - if the enemy has a big stack outside your city which will obviously win, it can be a good idea to escape the units in it to another city. Otherwise he kills all your units, and you kill maybe a couple of siege.

    Plus the enemy may split his forces to defend the city he's just taken.
     
  7. henyo10

    henyo10 Warlord

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    Well Charlemagne now in my game is kinda like Nazi Germany where they are fighting on two fronts. He is fighting the western front, Portugal and Germany, and eastern front, Me(Greece), Persia and Inca. Well if the allies in the game combined they roughly occupy only 3/4 of Charlemagne's empire and quite frankly its a stalemate. The thing is I kill so much units albeit obsolete but they keep coming and coming, literally endlessly. So now should I make a beeline to his core cities which is literally at the heart of his empire and razed them? Or should I slowly occupy the cities on my border and sue for peace?
     
  8. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Occupy cities on border, sue for peace, prepare, destroy...
     
  9. whitelaughter

    whitelaughter Warlord

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    out of curiousity - can you become the vassal of an AI? Could be useful if you're planning for a cultural/space victory.
     
  10. mechaerik

    mechaerik Tuturuu!

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    No. You can't.


    Not in SP anyways, not too sure about MP, but i think you can only vassal to other humans.
     
  11. king lundmark

    king lundmark Chieftain

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    try to take as mach land of his as possible, raze as needed, and then sue for peace after you took a few cites of his, and during peace bulid the largest army you can and attack, rinse and repeat till you crippe him or destroy him.
     
  12. Mallin

    Mallin Supreme Meerkat Dictator

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    Another method you could use would be kill him through his economy. Blockade his coast, build up your troops on his borders to slow or stop his attacks and send in fast units to destroy his improvements. Let him keep his cities, they will drain more of his cash. Then build up your army with all that pillaged gold and do what the other people said to do. Or you could just hold off his attacks until you build the Manhattan Project and...

    -----:nuke::nuke:---
    --:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:--
    :nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
    ------:nuke:-----
    ------:nuke:------
    ------:nuke:-----
    --:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
    :nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
     
  13. capnvonbaron

    capnvonbaron Democratia gladii

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    agreed on several points...

    there have been a couple of times where I had a lot of CR2 and 3 units (both siege and attacker) that would have done terrible holding a city. Faced with a monster stack headed my way, I back out of the city and let them take it, then unleash the wrath of CR to shred their [mostly CR] attack stack. Its almost unfair... but I have a very hard time feeling pity for AI :p

    Admittedly, I have never faced having to back out of one of my core cities that way... if the AI gets that far, the situation is usually hopeless either in that my stacks have been killed off or I've quit the game by that point :sad:

    Often, if you can destroy the enemy stack with minimal loss to your own, the game is won. As with civ3, it only pays to be the attacker. To be on the defense is to be losing or already lost.
     
  14. whitelaughter

    whitelaughter Warlord

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    Is it ever worth luring an opponent into your turf to get the extra great general points?
     
  15. capnvonbaron

    capnvonbaron Democratia gladii

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    You mean assuming you have the GWall?

    It can be. On upper levels its usually worth it to figure out where the enemy's deathstack is, even if you have already planned a full offensive. It can be bad to run into their stack on their land because the battle will not usually be held on your terms.

    Also, in the era just before cannons, it can be hard to deal with a stack roaming your lands. Catapults and trebs only work so-so and just get shredded by maces, wellies and knights. That is why its best to pin their stack in a city... and if they occupy a city then the battle won't technically be on your land for the GG points I think.

    Now, something tricky that I've never gotten to try might be to put up some forts on uselss non-hill tiles (like deserts) in between the enemy and you (assuming you get the option of pre-planning). The enemy stack will likely move onto a fort if it is in their path because, like hills and forests, it is considered a higher defense value tile. Forts act as a "city" both defensively and offensively. Once they are there, your city-raider promotions can work on them, and they aren't too likely to have a lot of CG stuff (likely a lot of their stack will be CR). I know it sounds kinda backward but if you have a lot of CR offensive stuff, that could be one way to use it.
     
  16. whitelaughter

    whitelaughter Warlord

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    [chortles] building a fort to lure them in, and then slaughter them with the city raider promos? That's gold! Thanks.
     
  17. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    One of the problems you've faced in this situation could be a lack of cavalry as they can knock that out through flanking. If you can knock out their seige weapons, you might as well let them attach your cities if they've been garrisoned with city gaurd riflemen and don't get the chance to bombard your defences. Even if the rest of their stack survives, they won't be able to inflict even a quarter of the damage they might otherwise without siege.

    It's always worth keeping a balanced stack ready for offense or defense. I disagree that to be on the defense is to lose already. As long as you're prepared, you can expect to win. With a large opponent, I'll Dow then let their stack come into my lands, knowing that I can wipe out their stack quite easily in my own territory before counter attacking. This then puts them on the backfoot, having to whip to replace what they lost and deal with sometimes crippling war unhappyness.
     
  18. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    Either that or take 4 vassals of your own. Preferably more powerful ones. :D
     
  19. whitelaughter

    whitelaughter Warlord

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    Something I found useful in my game last night was: every time I took two cities, immediately creating a vassal. That sped border expansion, immediately provided the cities with garrisons and slowed the enemy counter attacks, giving my troops time to heal up.
    And of course the vassal was even more loyal than usual due to the war drawing us together. (oh, I had Missionaries with me, so converted the cities to my SR before handing them over: that also seemed to help a great deal).
     
  20. capnvonbaron

    capnvonbaron Democratia gladii

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    I wouldn't label that "defense" so much as "planned offense". Even though it is on your own turf, you are still doing all the real attacking. What I'm referring to is... if you are bottled up in your own city just waiting for the enemy stack to do its thing while HOPING you can hold out, or that another civ doesn't DoW you... that is the losing defense.

    Agreed though, mounted units are a big helper. Getting them to flanking2 is the best bet, since they are more likely to retreat if losing and they are not affected by those annoying first strike units.
     

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