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Help for an atheist going to church

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by kiwitt, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    But that only worked with fellow Christians in Europe for the most part.



    Thousand of Koreans executed early in the war

     
  2. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    That's what happens without morals (that and the Rape of Nanjing)
     
  3. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    You mean that's what happens with the predominately Christian American soldiers standing right next to them?

    And Buddhist and Christian Koreans do have morals, as well as the rest of the population.
     
  4. RoboPig

    RoboPig Chieftain

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    You have heard of nominal Christians, haven't you?
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Are non-nominal ones those which try to excuse any acts by other Christians which they happen to disagree by insinuating or stating those can't possibly be real Christians?

    Would you agree that Muslim terrorists aren't real Muslims?
     
  6. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Muslim terrorists typically have a very weak grasp on their religion and so are being manipulated to do things with Islam as a cover for what the manipulators are actually doing. In short Muslims terrorists aren't really Muslims.
     
  7. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    I disagree with this, since there are plenty passages in the Koran that talk about killing infidels. So according to their scripture they are being true to it, whereas the Bible tells us to preach the gospel to every creature. The only passage when God gives instruction to kill people is when they have been fighting and killing the people of Israel for many hundreds of years, so it retaliation for their sins which they had plenty of chances to stop, but they refuse, but had they repented like the Ninevites, they would have been saved from any destruction. It is pretty simple, repent of your sins, or God will destroy you. that is basically the same message, now the repents is given to all men, but refusal leads to destruction.
     
  8. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    My knowledge of the Qur'an is limited, so I don't know what it ACTUALLY teaches, but I do know that if the Qur'an does teach killing infidels, most Muslims either ignore these passages or interpret them differently than you do.

    In the Bible, we are told to put to death "Anyone who does not worship the Lord." Now, a Muslim could say "Your religion teaches killing infidels as well." Technically yes. However, since the command is never repeated in the New Testament, it was for the Old Testament Holy Land only.

    God can take care of himself, we only kill in his name when specifically told too.
     
  9. Truronian

    Truronian Quite unfamiliar Retired Moderator

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    A much saner philosophy would be to never kill in his name...
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    ... using God, the Bible, or religious intuition as a motivator, at least.
     
  11. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    [
    Unlike many other Christians, at least you are willing to be consistent in this regard.

    Given the Christian and the Muslim track records so far, what are the odds of that ever happening?
     
  12. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    I am pretty much certain God would never command someone to kill for no reason. If I heard God's audible voice telling me to kill someone, and I knew it was God, I would be right to obey.

    THAT SAID, every time God has ordered a war to be fought, he has had a specific reason for it, it wasn't simply a "Kill the infidel!" Type thing.

    I think you misinterpreted my post to think that killing people is something God regularly commands, which unless you are a soldier, is not the case.
     
  13. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    1% of the population is schizophrenic.

    A terrific number of schizophrenics report that it is God, Jesus, or an angel talking to them.
    Importantly, people who 'hear the voice of God' do NOT have the metacognitive skills to determine whether it is actually God talking to them. Humans cannot tell when it's God and when it's their own delusion. We do not have that skill, because as the intensity of the conversation (with the voice) rises, the skills required to deduce our own rationality decrease.

    Now, knowing the incredible number of clearly mentally ill people who report God talking to them, it's completely insane to assume that your own personal voice (of God, telling you to kill) is actually God.

    Any moral system that allows instructions to kill to come from God fails as a moral system. It's too contradicted by reality and our understanding of metacomprehension skills in people. Churches that teach such a thing are teaching a moral error.
     
  14. Flying Pig

    Flying Pig Utrinque Paratus Moderator

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    Indeed. Why the hell do people think that he wants us to act as his angels of death? He'll give any judgement he sees fit on the guilty when he sees fit to do it; that's his job. The idea that the all-powerful king of the universe needs Brian from Ashted to sort out one pesky little sinner is absurd.
     
  15. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Well, Abrahamic scripture is chock full of examples of God telling people to kill. To wonder if a god that demands human sacrifice should be obeyed is then natural.
     
  16. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    On the one hand, he does allow us to act as his agents on Earth, to be a part of his plan, and its a great gift.

    On the other hand, there is an absolute moral law. God is goodness, he can't command us to do something sinful.

    God NEVER demanded Human Sacrifice. And he would never even give it as a test today, since Scripture forbids it.

    While it was wrong then, the Scriptures that told us so did not exist. But God did not have Abraham kill Isaac (Who at this time was an adult or older teen, and so was probably willing to obey God) and therefore he did not Sin. It was a test, and Abraham passed.
     
  17. Truronian

    Truronian Quite unfamiliar Retired Moderator

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    What do you mean by this? That god is unable to command man to do evil acts or that heavenly commands are automatically good, even if they would be otherwise immoral?
     
  18. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    Both.

    God can't command us to do something immoral, or at least, he never would (I'm not sure if he CAN'T, but for an unchanging being, it doesn't matter.) For instance, God would never command someone to sleep with someone that they were not married too, since by definition that is immoral.

    That said, certain things are moral only when God tells us to do them. For instance, killing people is wrong. That said, since God is the owner of human life, he can command someone to kill. HOWEVER, for this command to happen, certain things have to be true. It has to be a situation where it would not be immoral to kill someone. For instance, God would not command you to kill your neighbor down the street for no reason, but he might command you kill someone who is trying to kill someone else.

    I don't 100% understand how this works. The simple answer is from OUR perspective, if God commands it, its morally right. From HIS perspective, he can't command something that is immoral, as this contradicts his own nature.
     
  19. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I agree! ;)
    However, just to be clear, what does a 'god demanding human sacrifice' DO? Like, what're some of the traits of a religious human sacrifice that make it a 'sacrifice to a god'? There's the actual demand. There's the promise (implicit or direct) of punishment/reward. etc.
     
  20. Truronian

    Truronian Quite unfamiliar Retired Moderator

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    In the Bible, God does just this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek#War_of_genocide_against_the_Amalekites

    If God commanded you to do something that you thought morally wrong, would you do it? Would you perform an action that you considered evil? Assume for the purposes of the question that you have no doubt that the command comes from God.
     

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