HELP for DOT mapping and strategical early choices

[CBPE]

First of all, sorry for my english (!)

I'm playing my first game on monarch level in BtS with Suryavarman (Khmer Empire):

CRE/EXP; start with Mining/Hunting; UU: Ballista Elephant; UB: Baray (repl. Aqueduct).

I set Shuffle, ancient era, normal size and velocity, 7 Civs and all the others options 'casual'.

I found this interesting but uncomfortable position after 24 turns (i finished my first settler at this moment):



I think this position includes several strategical problems....

The good points probably are:

1) in this peninsula there is room for 4 city with very good food resources. This can emphasize the expansive trait of the leader with a good, quick vertical expansion

2) there is the possibility to place a city in an excellent position:



It can become a grat GP farm, doesn't it?

3) I have an easy and not attackable (at least for now) access to copper (and I got stone and silver too)

The bad points probably are:

1) there is no room for a decent horizontal expansion, and it seems in this way the creative trait of my leader is wasted

2) At this moment I don't know if i have access to horses (i'm researching 'Animal Husbandry' but i need 5 turns yet)

3) I have not IVOR! This is a very important point 'cause the ivor allows my UU (and I haven't marble and gold too)

4) I can’t explore (at least till I open boarders with Qin) so I can’t meet other Civ and also tribal villages (i.e.: I’ve got ZERO gold for now, and this can become quickly a big problem for research).

Looking in this way, i don't see an alternative choice to go at war with Qin, but the problem is...

when?!?

I think there are two strategical way:

A) Delay the war: it means build 4 city, develop my CIV, maybe open boards with him and then program the war very accuratly.

The priority, in this case, is to put down 2 cities at the borders to prevent he can colonize south.
With the creative trait, I think these cities are able to expand their borders enough quickly and cut off Qin from “my” peninsula.
Then, I can place the settler for the red city.

I tought to position in this way:



I don’t love yellow city very much (it comprises 3 desert tiles) but I don’t see another way.


B) Go to war now: it means build immediatly the red city (wich insure the more rapid growth), switch to slavery and hardly use whipping and chopping to build up quickly an axemen army (hoping that Qin doesn't have the copper too).


So, what you suggest please?!?

Thank you anyway and sorry again for my awful english

 

[slobberinbear]

Your english is fine. It is much better than my Italian.

I would move your Red city one square southwest for the wheat. You will also have more river squares by moving to the west, but you will lose the clams.

That then allows you to put the yellow city on the coastal desert square (2 south, 1 east of its present location). You get all the same resources and only end up with one desert square in the workable area.

I would put the blue city one square to the southeast of its current location, which adds one more grassland and plains square.

I would settle the cities in that order: red, yellow, blue.

I would research animal husbandry and bronze working. If you don't have copper nearby, research iron working. Then attack Qin.

 

[CBPE]

I would move your Red city one square southwest for the wheat. You will also have more river squares by moving to the west, but you will lose the clams.
That then allows you to put the yellow city on the coastal desert square (2 south, 1 east of its present location). You get all the same resources and only end up with one desert square in the workable area.
I would put the blue city one square to the southeast of its current location, which adds one more grassland and plains square.

Well, I saw this solution, but I don't like to overlap my cities' crosses, especially when I play an expansive leader, where I prefer growing cities' size as much as possible. Am i wrong?

I would settle the cities in that order: red, yellow, blue.

Aren't you afraid about a possible Qin's city in "my" territory meanwhile I'm building the third and fourth settler?

I would research animal husbandry and bronze working. If you don't have copper nearby, research iron working. Then attack Qin.

Maybe my english is not so pretty

I already have COPPER (see the tile south of capital).

That's so I'm asking if I have to go war now with Qin...

And I'm searching for Animal Husbandry at this moment ("Allevamento di animali") but I need 5 turns to complete...

 

[madscientist]

I like Bear's idea of the three aditional city placement. The only thing I would do differently is settle the 2 northern ones first, then the red one. Qin is rather peaceful to start then become a backstabber. I have not had a game where he attacked me that fast. He also like wonders so he may not settle that agressively at first.

That said, he's got at least 2 seafood sources and you have copper so a fast axerush would work well. The thing I am not sure of is whether Qin's capital in on your land mass or is there water separating you 2.

Your english is fine, and better than my spelling.

 

[Gocho]

Is that his capitol up there? If so I make the red city for a whipping city and take it as my third, backfill as needed.

 

[mudphud]

Is that his capitol up there? If so I make the red city for a whipping city and take it as my third, backfill as needed.

I think that is what I'd do in this situation. I think the red city is fine where it is. If you move SW then you lose the clams to get the wheat. Of course the wheat would be easier to get online for a faster start. A couple of questions. When did you build your worker? I would recommend building the worker sooner as I don't see any improvements other than the silver mine. Also your capital isn't in a great location - did you move the settler from where it started?

 

[Saltiana]

Your red city is exactly where I were thinking to place it when I saw the first screen shot

If I were you, I think I'll rush qin just after settling red, you don't want to have a protective leader too near blocking your expansion and you have a good chance to face archers with your axes.

 

[CBPE]

OK, how I've said, this is my first attempt to play at monarch level, and so it's easy I've already committed several mistakes

So, I would like, with your help, to understand where I was wrong.

This was the starting position:



I moved the scout over the tribal village getting a map:



So i tought to move the settler 1 SW to have access to all the resources displayed. Was it a mistake?



Then I went for BW/wheel/fishing/animal husbandry and I builded up worker/ warrior (the worker improved the silver mine) / second warrior (the city not raised up size 2) / second worker (the first chopped for it) / settler (either workers chopped for it).

The idea was to pursuit a sort of REX for the good food resources and the traits EXP/CRE of my leader, but when I’ve seen Qin’s block I asked me what to do.

I’m almost sure that the city in front of me is Pechino, his capitol, cause I’ve seen the borders several turns ago (almost 10) and I think it’s very unlikely that he have already founded a second city just around turn 15-20....

So, I’m very tempted by the idea to position red city in the location I described (yes, i’ve got clam instead of wheat, but i don’t like too much overlapping) and then whip/chop for axemen and go straight directly to Pechino.....

But I’ll grateful to all of you would tell me their suggestions

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

OK, how I've said, this is my first attempt to play at monarch level, and so it's easy I've already committed several mistakes

So, I would like, with your help, to understand where I was wrong.

Here are my own observations.

1) opening tribal villages with cultural borders is more effective than using scouts (not only are barbarians eliminated, you also eliminate the chance to get experience - ie. better odds of getting a tech). Note that this isn't true if the village is next to your first city - in that circumstance, you never get a tech.

2) Crabs are a fine source of food, but you almost always want to be working them from a coastal city (coastal cities are good on their own, because of the commerce benefits; but also because they can build workboats and light houses).

Settling a city "1 off of the coast", meaning that you have coast tiles in the second ring of your city is generally sub optimal.

3) IF you are considering moving the settler, you should be using the scout to gather additional information. Of course, you might not have considered moving the settler without first seeing the map....

4) Plains Silver is an awesome tile, and worth taking advantage of. I'd like to think that I would have seen that the tile to the south-EAST was coastal, and rolled the die by moving the settler that way (hoping for the food tile, or seafood).

But that's a lot easier to see when looking at the whole map.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Build red city.
War with Qin.
Make Qin's capital your third city.

Red city 1 SW is just as strong as your map position for it.

Was moving the city a mistake? Not necessarily. It really takes a coastal city to make full use of a sea resource. The lighthouse (+1 ) makes that tile really good... you can't do that without sea access. "One off the coast" is the worst of both worlds though, because there is no way to improve the water tiles. You have to have a really, really good reason to put a city there. I don't think the inland lake lets you build those buildings. I haven't tried it in BTS though.

I would have moved it 1 SE instead, since that tile is obviously on the coast (even on the first exposed map), and gets the silver into the fat cross, a really good tile. That would let another city take that seafood later, too.

edit- My move would have kept the copper too far away to use, though, but I couldn't have seen that until after researching BW. May as well use it for what it's meant in the mean time. Qin's city is probably awesome.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

You never know what you might do until you're faced with the situation, but I think I would've moved the Scout 1SW or 2 SE to get a better view of things.

From the first SS, there is no food in the BFC, and under all the fog, you can see forests everywhere. You can sort of see the Wheat under the fog, but that's probably only because we know it's there.

Either way, founding any city (especially a capital) without an immediately accessible food resource in the BFC is typically a gamble.

That much forest in the BFC also signifies early wonder-hogging and/or rushing for me. QSH is close, but he's protective, so rushing won't be easy. Either chop the Settler to block him or chop all of those forests down for Axemen.

That many forests always signifies a lack of hidden resources, so your second city should either block QSH or grab a resource, IMO. You're Creative, so don't be afraid to get in QSH's face.

Oh yeah, from your starting position, there are only two hills in the BFC ... I only suggest settling on a hill when it's prime real estate or when their are plenty of hills to go around.


-- my 2

 

[mudphud]

Yea that starting location makes choosing your first city is hard. The problem with the location of your capital is food. You have the nice silver tile but no food to work it with (and still grow). I can understand why you moved but realize that the crabs aren't that great without a lighthouse and it will be a long time before you can build a workboat to get them. The wheat would have been a much better tile but of course you didn't know it was there.

 

[CivSetä]

The peninsula is not the easiest one to colonize. Here is my suggestion about city sites, not killer-cities really, but will do. Your land is relatively dry, except some grassland around capital, so why not try SE? Every city in my dotmap can support at least two specialists before CS.

I suggest founding yellow city first, cows add some nice production. Build road there and chop forests for units. Then kill Qin, or cripple him depending on situation, there is at least one more civ in the north on basis of espionage points. You have the advantage on 0%, which means Qin is spreading his points.

 

[mudphud]

My vote would be for founding one more city and then chop rushing with axes. Something worth considering depending on your EP points would be inciting a revolt in his capital on the turn you attack to remove his defenses - of course to do that you'll need to research alphabet so you build a spy.

 

[CBPE]

Thank you all for your very interesting suggestions, I've learned a lot, I'll remember next game.

For this, instead, i've decided to place the settler 1 sw from my map to create the red city (most of you suggests this) and then hardly go for axe-rush Pechino.

I've never tried this tactic before, so I think it's a good situation to practice in this, seeing that my current position in this game is not an exploit

Thanks all

 

[mudphud]

Thank you all for your very interesting suggestions, I've learned a lot, I'll remember next game.

For this, instead, i've decided to place the settler 1 sw from my map to create the red city (most of you suggests this) and then hardly go for axe-rush Pechino.

I've never tried this tactic before, so I think it's a good situation to practice in this, seeing that my current position in this game is not an exploit

Thanks all

Good luck with your ax rush. It is a valuable tactic to be familiar with even though it isn't as useful in BtS. The main thing to know is build lots of axes!

 

[CBPE]

I don’t know if here I’m OT, but I’d like to continue to compare with you about my game (as I’ve already said, it’s my first game at monarch level and it seems it could be very didactics).

After placed the second (red) city where decided, I discover horses in my borders:



Then, as planned, I went for axe-rush Qin.
I sent some chariots too with the idea (beyond to support the axemen) of exploring as much as possibile during the first city’s siege



Note that I used whipping/chopping so wildly that I’ve so much hammer overflow (of course with the help of having stone) that I was able to build Stonehenge and Great Wall in, respectivly, 2 and 3 turns!!! In fact, I don’t need a lot this wonders, but, seeing that they were so cheap, I preferred deprived them to the other Civ and start gaining some GP points. Was it a correct choice?

Anyway, as hoped the first Qin city on my way was is capital and I got it:



I think it’s a wonderful city! Doesn’t it?:



So I discovered that just a little northern there is Gilgamesh, while, on the east, a second Qin’s city seemed isolated:



So i went for Shangai and bye bye Qin!
Chineses were eradicated



I preferred keep Shangai most of all ‘cause I was worry about a possibile settling of Gilgamesh (or any other) there, and so find again me entrapped.
What do you think about?

Now, I’ve discovered that I’m blocked on north by Gilgamesh and on west by Victoria, but now I think I’ve got sufficient room for 7 good cities, and so I’m not intend to go again to war with someone but I’m going to consolidate.

First of all, I’d like to place a settler (that is just finished) in the room left by Pechino’s fall in front of the english, and I’ll do before it can be done by someone else:



and my idea is to place in this way:



Second, I get Pyramids, and so I’m going to switch to “Hereditary Rule” in order to solve happiness’ problem and leave my cities grow as much as possible (it also could help me about Gilga’s relationship... he doesn’t like me very much cause Qin was friendly with him...)

Third, I won’t open borders with anyone till I will “fill” the space left in “my starting peninsula” with the cities that we called “yellow” and “blue”.

But here is the problem. I have financial problems (gold ZERO till Pechino's capture), so I’m back with the techs. Unfortunately, I missed the Oracle, and now basilary techs like CoL and Metal casting are far from me. So I’m going for Alfabet hoping to have good techs exchanges.

Again, I’ll be very glad if you’d like to share with me your opinions over all that

 

[Byrath]

I'd consider moving your 'green' city one space NW to get the other horse resource within your 'fat cross'.. or is it already inside England's border? Either way, being a creative leader + having stonehenge, its quite possible that you wiill claim the resource in time. Green city looks like a great production site, so I'd move NW either way to get a couple more hills in my fat cross and to simply gain a little more territory.
Pechino looks like a fun GP farm as well, Qin really did have some nice land for you to take, heheh.
I enjoyed reading this, thanks for sharing, and showing the huge pile of 'guerriero con ascia'.

 

[Taube]

Great Job with the Axe Rush there. It looks like you've got some decent land with a lot of resources but you'll soon be enclosed with no more room to expand peacefully. Therefore you'll have to chose an ally and a victim between Victoria (Fin/Imp) and Gilgamesh (Cre/Pro). Do they dislike each other already? Is there anyway to drive a wedge between them?

One way to pick an ally could be to get to Code of Laws as soon as possible as it appears no one has a religion yet. Send your missionary to your chosen ally. Who to chose seems to be a tough decision. On one hand Gilgamesh is Protective which makes a tougher fight until you get significant numbers of seige weapons. On the other hand Victoria is Financial and so could make a good great spy infiltration target. (Run a spy specialist in your Great Wall city as soon as possible).

As for your short-term "financial problems" it doesn't look that bad to me. Your new cities will increase your maintenance some if you go for the religion courthouses will arrive soon. Also, I completely agree with Byrath that Pichino is screaming to be a GP farm so get a library and two scientists there quick.

Finally, I would've picked Representation instead of HR, the extra beakers are great since you have a number of high food cities and the happiness is enough since you don't have very many cities.

Thanks for the great posts and good luck.

 

[CBPE]

Thanks for your replies

I'd consider moving your 'green' city one space NW to get the other horse resource within your 'fat cross'.. or is it already inside England's border?

Yes, it's already in england's border, anyway it sounds like a good idea....

but doing so, I'll repeat the initial situation when I moved the first settler (look above to the beginning messages of the thread): I'll found a city 1-tile from the coast....

It's good here? Why?