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Help going from Immortal to Deity

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Beorn-eL-Feared, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Beorn-eL-Feared

    Beorn-eL-Feared Idiot riding pedals

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    Hello Fanatics,

    I've been playing a bunch of CiV lately, mostly with Tabarnak's tradition opening.

    This has made immortal ridiculously easy. Except when I have to deal with a runaway AI, I barely have to expand beyond my first 5 cities to win through science or domination. Just roll on conquests with CB-XB-Cannon-Arti, puppet everything, buy a win.

    However, on Deity, I always always get piled up on. 2 civs will declare war together, I can take them for a while but it stifles growth and I can't bring myself to push them back home for actual gains or a positive peace treaty.

    Therefore, I'm looking at a few options to make deity feasible:
    1. Wait for a ridiculously cooked up start (least practical);
    2. Strengthen my military earlier, keep stealing workers, step down from 4 to 3 more defensible cities and more units;
    3. Set up my 4th city as a dud on a very defensible hill-river position and provoke a war I can win;
    4. Broaden my strategy book and find ways to go around these inconveniences.

    Clearly, #3 is the most viable, but I read a bunch of strat guides and none seemed to drastically change what I do, or improve upon it. I probably don't see the right details I need to work on though, so I was wondering if anyone's been there.
     
  2. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    If you are looking to avoid the early DOW, (2) is most likely to work most quickly, particularly since Deity AI react quite strongly to a fourth early city. If you search the 4-cities thread you will see some early back and forth between Tabarnak and MadDjinn about the efficacy of 4 quick cities on Deity. Since then, with AI aggressiveness increased in last Fall's patch (and apparently yet more with yesterday's patch) and increased AI tendency to spend its gold (esp. on units), 3 cities and more unit production/buying may be prudent.
     
  3. Beorn-eL-Feared

    Beorn-eL-Feared Idiot riding pedals

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    Great point, thanks.

    So with 3 cities in mind, is Liberty even worth looking into? I've been loving the aqueducts and early culture from tradition so much that I've always been skeptical of Liberty.
     
  4. Fire0rb

    Fire0rb Warlord

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    The decision between Libety and Tradition is totally map dependant.
    If you have enough space to settle more than 4 cities but you have aggressive neighbours, liberty is a very viable option, due to the fact you get the settler and worker immediatly.
    Glory7 did some nice game in the Deity Challenge series utilizing Liberty.

    I must admit that i am more comfortable with tradition on deity but i am trying to broaden my strategics and try some liberty openers (which fail miserably atm :D) but i wont loose hope ;)
     
  5. Maxym

    Maxym King

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    Depends on how you intend to play, if you are going to kick AI butt, then liberty is best. Fast expo and high production combined with more happy later as you conquer. Not to mention you get to choose one wonder ;)

    But if you have room for some nice tall cities in a position to exploit some chokepoints tradition will get you better results, especially in mid game science. You can also see if taking over one neighbor is feasible and defend a larger empire. This is the most fail safe way to play deity IMHO. And almost any AI in any terrain and circumstances can be had early. Just don't build a library, but archers.
     
  6. Falconiano

    Falconiano Prince

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    I found that going a bit wide is most always the best in deity, usually most AI cities will pay their own smiles with luxies.
    If you let the AI get too many cities going they get the upper hand; it's not always the case you can win with 4 cities in deity too but it's safer to at least clean up a bit.

    Liberty is most times a waste in my opinion, unless your map doesn't allow early trading too much (i.e. archipelago-esque maps and you only have 1-2 AIs discovered) in which case the settler/worker out of SPs is great since you can't get money from trading to buy them.
    Another case is if you want to rush a wonder with the free GP.
     
  7. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Yeah, I always found 4-cities at that timing to be quite ambitious for the map settings they were playing on. When you random up a Standard Pangea, it's very likely that you'll find yourself sandwiched between two or even three AI's. Then it's not a question of forward settling or not forward settling, it's just down to who you're going to forward settle against. And while you're in that one war, I notice the AI behaving very opportunistically against the player. Sometimes civs that are not even adjacent to you will send an army, even if it is so small that it has no realistic hope of making any conquest.

    Then of course, some games and some LP's might work out completely differently, which adds to the confusion for new players. I think it was in Beyond the Monument episode 2 where MD opens a map as Swiss, finds Attila and Monty nearby, then receives 2 or 3 offers of friendship before Turn 30, one from Monty. On that game, there was room enough for 4 safe cities.

    So, how many cities you found doesn't depend on your policies nearly as much as it depends on the map conditions. It's also a mistake to assume that the Tradition SP's aren't having full benefit unless 4 cities are built. The fewer cities you have, the greater the benefit of Tradition over Liberty, because Liberty has even more per-city benefits.
     
  8. Beorn-eL-Feared

    Beorn-eL-Feared Idiot riding pedals

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    Extremely helpful guys, thanks a lot.

    A question about Petra: What makes it SO powerful? I mean I get that it's very strong, don't get me wrong, but I never seem to like desert starts very much. And then, how would you go about your research to get it early on? Lux-Arch-Cons-Writ-Math-Philo?
     
  9. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Say you have 6 workable Desert tiles, Petra is like a Hanging Gardens and Ironworks rolled into one. It's not so much that it turns plain Desert into Plains, but that it turns Desert Hills and Oases into very powerful tiles. Also, it goes hand in hand with the other elements that make Desert starts so powerful, mostly the Desert Folklore Pantheon.

    On tech path, Petra is odd in that the range of turns that the AI will build it is very wide. Sometimes it will go on Turn 70, other times it will still be available on Turn 100. If any of the AI's have Capitals with any desert tiles in them, it will be gone by T80 at the latest. In that event you will need to go Pottery > Writing > Currency beeline to even get it. When it's unbuilt past around T80, you can get Currency just in time to build it, provided that you went Philo first and are finishing the NC about then. That is usually my Petra strategy, and because of the opportunity costs I am really loathe to force Currency first.
     
  10. Fire0rb

    Fire0rb Warlord

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    Well the OP'ness of Petra Desert starts is simple.
    You get very early food access with flood plains and oasis (+wheat = gg).
    You get massive Faith due to Desert Folklore.
    You enhanced your non flooded plains tiles IMMENSLY. Due to the fact the city grows like crazy it get additional massive hammers if you happen to have a lot of hills.
    The problem on Deity is getting either Petra or Desert Folklore because the AI will grab it immediatly when they can. But if you get it, you are done ;)
     
  11. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    Yes, there is a point in liberty even if you plan on settling only 3 cities. As Maxym pointed out, it's mostly on how you intend to play. If you plan to expand throughout war, particularly in the early game, liberty will generally provide larger benefit both in terms of how early you can setup the rush and how fast you can get all lands improved.

    I've had a game recently as Byzantium I threw SSs in a different thread where I did a 1-city rush to neighbor and expanded to 7 cities (still with only 1 founded) by turn 100. I honestly regretted taking tradition over liberty for that game. The 25% bonus to worker is significantly underestimated, having had a second city free very early would've helped my early crippled science from beelining construction after writing while spam building archers. But in particular, the GE would've allowed me to rush one of the many much needed classical era wonders (probably GMD or HS to get my faith out since it was important to my happiness strategy and I struggled all along because it was not strong enough).

    Last but not least, since it's easier to gain more total pop wide than tall, a wide empire from early wars will benefit largely from the reduced SP cost (gotta annex those cities to get the most out of it) and workers bonus

    tl;dr, liberty is great for wide or a clutch GE/GP for wonder/religion. Aqueducs can always be built so all you are really losing is the 15% growth which sadly enough provides significantly less total food than ToA (not that they're mutually exclusive but simply that you need a lot of bonus food to make the most out of trad).
     
  12. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    I also meant to add that the DoWs from the 4th city is often a matter of settling 2-3 cities within a very tight timeframe (before the diplo hit from the previous wore off) and also, or especially, by settling it on land which your neighbor claims to be his. Now in general, if you delay to sell embassies to immediate neighbors until after your full expansion, you will get both fewer diplo hits (often the 2nd and 3rd city won't yet be within their claimed land) and in particular, you will reduce the likelihood of said neighbors to expand towards you.

    tl;dr if you want to expand 4 cities, don't sell embassy to immediate neighbors.
     
  13. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    The real big gain from petra is from hills and oases. A full flat desert with petra is still a god awful city. The added benefit of petra is that all worked tiles will benefit from golden ages which is especially potent for super tall capitals and unachievable unless you firetune regular starts and have worlds of rivers crossings.

    Generally, when looking for a petra/DF start for a specific strategy, I am for AT LEAST 8 legit tiles gaining from petra (so 8 hills/oases or, possibly, flat desert luxuries or stone).
     
  14. Unresolved

    Unresolved King

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    I once had a start with only a few desert hills and 4 desert flood plains, but it had 3-4 oasis(can't remember exact amount) with 4-6 plain desert tiles surrounding each one. It's too bad I missed Petra in that game...
     
  15. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    The turn at which AI will build it doesn't depend so much on it's tech location but rather on the wonder requiring to be settled on a desert tile or one tile from, paired with that deserts are not so common on maps and very few wonderful civs have a high desert start bias
     
  16. Beorn-eL-Feared

    Beorn-eL-Feared Idiot riding pedals

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    Tremendously helpful guys, thanks again. Between this and ELcee's let's plays, I think I'm ready for Deity.

    Started a game late yesterday with Attila, Pangea, got a battering ram from hut on turn 3 and captured a CS with Urulu on turn 10. It feels a bit cheaty. OTOH happies stifled my growth so I guess it sortof balances out (no it doesn't).

    Went Liberty from there and got a happy religion.

    Anyways, turn 75 and I'm on my way to hit Ramsess in his wonder center. I'll be back with a better turn report when it's conclusive :)
     
  17. Justice1337

    Justice1337 Sofa King

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    Yeah, this reminds me of a game I recently had. Those games you would've just slaughtered on Immortal, you usually end up slaughtering as well on Deity. You just have to kill more units.

    One of my favorite cheap tactics to do with Atilla/Ghengis is capture a CS, trade it to another civ, then immediately DoW that civ, recapture the CS and Liberate. Gives you a Worker or two a lot of the time, and a load of influence with the CS. Doing this with Mercantiles can be pretty key to keep expansion going early. But it's also possible that they changed the AI to no longer accept deals for cities.
     
  18. JibJabberJab

    JibJabberJab Chieftain

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    Wow, this is borderline evil :D.

    With Genghis you can also get a bunch of promotions on your cb's by not making peace with the city state you stole a worker from.

    Then, once you get your first khan, you run your cb's to the cs, shoot any units it might have (usualy barely any at this time).Then you just let your archers take punishment from the city state (preferably in terrain with good cover.) Any cb's about to die you run out, and you heal them up quickly again with your khan.

    The reason this only really works with genghis is partly his +30% against city states bonus, but mostly his khan's insane healing power.

    This way i had 4x + 1 range + 1 attack crossbows as soon as they came available, and just rolled over my neigbors with those + keshiks.

    Left side honor makes this work even better (faster khan, more exp.)

    Edit: eh, btw.. Howdy forum!, finally registered after ages of lurking.
     
  19. huntss

    huntss Chieftain

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    I'm having a lot of trouble on deity as well, playing G&K. What are really good civs for it? I've mostly been trying to play china. And what do people normally tech after getting construction and philosophy? I've been trying to go for civil cervice and then education but finding that at that point my units are outdated compared to the AIs, and of course they have about 10x as many of them. Also what kind of map is most popular for deity? I've been playing on pangea either small or standard with low sea level and everything else standard. Thanks for any help.
     
  20. Beorn-eL-Feared

    Beorn-eL-Feared Idiot riding pedals

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    Units being outdated: it's not so much about the units as it is about the promotions on your ranged units. With 2 squads of 4-6 archers, depending on terrain, you'll be able to hold off significant forces by letting them enter in. That's usually the hard part, balancing the

    As for techs, unless otherwise necessary, Iron, Metal Casting (workshops), crossbows, CS for pikes and then edu will ensure your wars are solid. Try to increase your science output by capturing a capital rather than getting unis first thing.

    But I'm not the expert here - not by by a longshot :)
     

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