Help! How can I do without the GLib?

[morchuflex]

Hello.

I play C3C, 1.22, emperor level.

For many months I had played only on archipelago. Needless to say, I had got addicted to the Lighthouse.
For the last three weeks, I have been playing on pangea maps for a change.
And guess what? I have developped a new addiction... to the Great Library.
I know pangea usually means warmongering über alles. And I think I have learnt to be an efficient warmonger. The trouble is, since you don't get tech by city captures (unlike previous Civ games), I still don't see how military expansion can lead to tech dominance. While I am busy conquering neighbors, the other AI civs take a huge lead. After a while, I do have the largest empire, but also the most backward. true, I can sometimes extort a couple techs for peace, and I have sometimes been lucky enough to capture the GLib. But most of the time, I end up a whole era below the most advanced opponents.
And conquest cannot go on forever, because after a while my horsemen and swordsmen tend to do very poorly against civs that possess musketmen.
Of course, I can switch to economical development. But it's a risky bet. I may very well never catch up.
So, the best solution I have found so far is to follow a warmonger strategy, while dedicating my best city to building the GLib. With a prebuild I can build it at least 50% of the time (the only failures coming from those damned wonder cascades).
But I don't find this solution elegant nor really satisfactory. The 300 shields would obviously better be turned into 6 horsemen and 6 catapults.
Still, when I don't get the GLib, I quickly feel dispirited by the enemy lead and tend to give up.

Any help?

 

[Drakan]

Hiya morchuflex. stop building or capturing the GL altogether at Emperor. Youu don't need it at all until deity or Sid, and even then quite a few players don't need it at Deity to win.

You have to learn to play from behind. Please read the article of ision in the War Academy from monarch to emperor the great leap. Once you've mastered Emperor level games without building the GL you can do as you please, until thgen, the GL will act as acrutch hampering your learning skills. In fact don't build any great wonder in Emperor until you win consistently. You have to develop your trading skills a lot.

 

[tR1cKy]

In high difficulty levels it's almost impossible to outrun the ai in the technology race. You WILL be technologically backwards, live with it. The best you can do is to keep research at zero and earn as much money as possible. This way you can buy techs, steal them, and trade them. As long as you don't get a rep hit, you can also trade luxuries for tech. And sometimes, with the zero research gambit you still have a chance to be the first to research a tech. It happened to me (on deity) with writing, literature and printing press.
Even extorting them in exchange for peace works. When an enemy has been almost sent into oblivion, it will give you everything to avoid destruction.

 

[morchuflex]

You have to learn to play from behind. Please read the article of ision in the War Academy from monarch to emperor the great leap. Once you've mastered Emperor level games without building the GL you can do as you please, until thgen, the GL will act as acrutch hampering your learning skills. In fact don't build any great wonder in Emperor until you win consistently. You have to develop your trading skills a lot.

Thanks, but I have already read all the war academy (with great profit). I know how the GLib can hamper my learning. And of course I know trade is essential. The trouble is, the GLib is simply too seductive. And I can't get used to lagging behind in tech. It's so humiliating.

 

[Drakan]

Morchuflex, check my signature and click on my strategy Ailing Civilization Strategy. You might find it useful. Practice makes perfect in this game.

 

[morchuflex]

Morchuflex, check my signature and click on my strategy Ailing Civilization Strategy.

I would. But... call me blind, but where IS the damn signature?

 

[Tomoyo]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91849

 

[Moonsinger]

I would. But... call me blind, but where IS the damn signature?

You can turn the "View Signature" on/off in your user profile. I can see his signature just fine.

 

[morchuflex]

Thanks everyone.

Drakan, I read your article. In fact, I had already had this idea. But I wasn't sure it wouldn't hurt my rep. Thanks to you, I now know.
In a recent game, at mid-middle era, I bought five techs from the declining Spanish for 389 gpt (luckily I was in my GA) and they were kind enough so as to die four turns later.
But it's not always a safe strategy. I did stg similar in my last game, buying several techs from the Byzantines who were obviously on the verge of extinction. Alas, they had one last tiny city on a small island that noone else could reach at the time (they had the GLH). I had to quit before humiliating myself into utter bankrupcy.

 

[IbnSina]

The only time I have trouble in the tech race on emperor level is at the change from the ancient age to the middle ages. There is usually a small crisis at that time because the scientific civs get their free techs and trade them among themselves, and I can't afford them all at once. Other than that, by using tech arbitrage, I can pretty much keep up through the middle part of the middle ages, and then run away from the AIs toward the end of the middle ages. ... and I have only built the GLib once in the last year.

At the risk of telling an experienced player like you things you already know, here are the salient points.

* After (possibly) researching pottery, turn all research funding off.
* Put several warriors or explorers out seeking contact with other civs
* Use CivAssist or Mapstat to keep track of who knows what (you can do it by touching each AI each turn, but who has time?)
* Look for situations analogous to: two civs know tech A, and three civs know tech B. Buy tech A for a fraction of the cost required to research it, then trade it to one of the civs that knows tech B but not tech A. In that way you acquire one tech cheaply and the other almost free.
* It goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that one needs scores of workers with roads everywhere...

If you're scientific and get a unique tech free at the beginning of the middle age, then you rule - you can use it to trade for all the first-level techs in the middle age (that's why I like the Greeks - good cheap ancient UU, plus the Scientific age boost - who could ask for more?). There is not even a small crisis in that case.

Occasionally a particularly long war can leave you further behind than is desirable (say 5 or 6 techs). It is still not a problem if that war led to territorial advantages - roads turn the territory into gold, which easily buys the techs. Patience is all that is required. Still, IMO wars should be short early in the game - grab some territory, cripple an enemy, and finish him later.

On small or tiny maps, conquest -can- go on forever. Just smash your opponents and prevent them from getting too large a tech lead. On standard or larger maps the game is easier IMO if you take occasional breaks from war to build marketplaces and libraries and universities, by way of preparing to run away from your opponents technologically at the end of the middle age.

If you have a choice of civs to hurt, choose the scientific one

The bottom line is that on emperor level you can still keep up with the AIs in tech, and eventually their ineptitude means that you can bury them. If that were not the case, then deity and Sid levels would not have been necessary...

 

[DragonRunner]

I wouldn't do too much war. I guess I'm a builder at heart, but my regent win on a Pangea map as the Vikings (for the UU, can't beat 6 attack in the MA) came with fairly limited warfare- I only used tanks in the last campaign, and I did not have too many wars. Won by conquest at the end of the IA- didn't even need flight.

 

[zerksees]

There are a lot of ways to address this problem. I am not sure how many of these you already know. Here are some suggestions:

1) Learn how to play from behind.
2) Persevere. You say "I quickly feel dispirited by the enemy lead and tend to give up." I am pretty sure that most real life great leaders would not say this. Unlike real life leaders you can fail and have another chance in the next game. I know the feeling. Push through it. If you lose I guarantee you will be more motivated to find a way to win next time.
3) Build population and improvements faster. Do this by building settler factories and expanding faster, and by building workers to make your improvements faster. MM your workers so that tile improvements are in place in time for new population to work them.
4) Get the AI to fight each other. This will keep them busy while you can build gold and infrstructure and catch up. Of course you will have to declare war but try to minimize the amount of actual fighting you have to do.

In my first deity game I attempted to build the Great Library. It didn't work but I was still able to make it through and win the game.

 

[budweiser]

I think micromanagement of workers is the key here. You may need to trade more too. Why not try this, since you are good at war and maybe not good at micromanagement and trading. Drop down a level to monarch, play a large pangea as China and do not allow yourself to do any research (keep your research slider at zero). Now, you will have two ways to get tech; war and gold. Chinese industrious will help you get a bettter infastructure to get more gold and militaristic will help you win tech through peace deals. Just make sure to make enough workers, at least one per city.

 

[rajwhitehall]

Warmongering can get you techs, if you do it right. Even though you don't get one automatically when you capture a city like in Civ2, you can still aquire them in the peace settlements. I didn't know how easy this was until recently, when I happened to ask for one tech along with the peace treaty. Here's what you do:

Attack a civ that's a problem and/or weak. Conquer a city or two. Then go on the defensive and consolidate your gains.Contact the enemy civ every turn until they are willing to negotiate. This is an indication that they want peace, so you know you've got the negotiating advantage. I suspect it helps if you have one stack of units in the city as peacekeepers, and another stack that is positioned next to the city AND next to the enemy border so they can be seen. Go to the bargaining table. Open the diplomatic agreements and select Peace. Then pick one of their Technologies and add it to their side of the table. Ask them if this is ok. In my experience, it's almost guaranteed, they will accept. While they attach huge monetary value to techs, compared to peace they are very unimportant the AI's valuation system.

Therefore your objective is not necessarily to wipe out the other civs as soon as possible, but take a leisurely approach to it. Many, many short wars, getting a tech with each peace deal, and meanwhile expanding your empire inexorably & building it, is less risky and more fun (IMO) than constant warfare and the resulting fragile infrastructure.

ps. I play on Monarch, not Empreror so you'll have to see if it still applies.

Hello.

I play C3C, 1.22, emperor level.

For many months I had played only on archipelago. Needless to say, I had got addicted to the Lighthouse.
For the last three weeks, I have been playing on pangea maps for a change.
And guess what? I have developped a new addiction... to the Great Library.
I know pangea usually means warmongering über alles. And I think I have learnt to be an efficient warmonger. The trouble is, since you don't get tech by city captures (unlike previous Civ games), I still don't see how military expansion can lead to tech dominance. While I am busy conquering neighbors, the other AI civs take a huge lead. After a while, I do have the largest empire, but also the most backward. true, I can sometimes extort a couple techs for peace, and I have sometimes been lucky enough to capture the GLib. But most of the time, I end up a whole era below the most advanced opponents.
And conquest cannot go on forever, because after a while my horsemen and swordsmen tend to do very poorly against civs that possess musketmen.
Of course, I can switch to economical development. But it's a risky bet. I may very well never catch up.
So, the best solution I have found so far is to follow a warmonger strategy, while dedicating my best city to building the GLib. With a prebuild I can build it at least 50% of the time (the only failures coming from those damned wonder cascades).
But I don't find this solution elegant nor really satisfactory. The 300 shields would obviously better be turned into 6 horsemen and 6 catapults.
Still, when I don't get the GLib, I quickly feel dispirited by the enemy lead and tend to give up.

Any help?

 

[morchuflex]

Well, thanks everyone for the good advice. I'm going to follow it and ignore the GLib.
But I still need advice on what to do after the first phase of conquest.

Currently, I'm playing Zulus on a standard pangea map with 7 rivals. The year is now 230 AD and I've just eaten up the Portugueses, my most immediate neighbor. I razed their cities and re-colonized their land, except for Coimbra and for Lisbon that contained the Colossus and the Hanging Gardens.
My empire is now twice as large as my biggest rival (Spain). I'm wondering wether I should convert to building infrastructure or choose someone else to kill. Currently the AI all have about 5 middle age techs; I'm lagging behind, but not too far: I have all ancient techs except republic (I'm in Monarchy).
The Portuguese war gave me three MGLs that I used to build one army and to rush both my FP (in Umtata) and the Heroic epic. I have three luxuries and horses but no iron. Isn't that in itself a good reason to go to war? I could easily kill the Koreans, who have iron.
My strike force (not counting home garrisons) consists of 16 horsemen, 17 archers (all vet, several elites) and 37 catapults. The AI has pikes and longbows but the advisor tells I'm way ahead of them in terms of military strength, and with all these catapults, I should manage to conquer them, shouldn't I?

Here's a screenie to help you assess my situation. I'm the yellow civ (lower left corner). Language is French. In case you wonder, most cities are building MPs ("marché") or CHs ("tribunal").

 

[tR1cKy]

Yeah, kill'em all!

 

[IbnSina]

You have done well. One point for future reference: don't use Monarchy except for excessive amounts of war. Republic works better for most situations. Since you're in Monarchy now, and have all those catapults (I don't usually build so many), I support your idea for a methodical campaign to take the Koreans' iron from them. I would take the iron, and then make peace, if possible. Horses are underpowered against pikes, but with all the catapults they should prevail. I trust that you have some impis to put in your SOD(s), since you may well face knights. You might consider buying the Arabs into an alliance against the Koreans, by way of keeping them from allying with the Koreans against you. Better yet, make a big gpt deal with the Arabs, attack the Koreans, assume that the Ks will ally with the reds or oranges against you, and then buy off the Arabs to fight that opponent. Unfortunately, that will cost more money than you have - maybe you should delay a few turns until a few of those marketplaces come in before you start in with the Koreans. On the other hand, if they don't have knights yet, then striking quickly might be the best plan. I love this part of the game! So much to think about...

 

[zerksees]

You look to be in good shape. I think I would add a half a dozen defensive units (Impi I guess) to your SOD in case you get overextended with the offensive units. It would be a shame to lose all those catapults. Seems like Korea or Arabs are going to be next.

My first emperor victory was with the Zulu. They are good for war - so go to war!