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Help in learning to play better

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by ryokoryu, Oct 30, 2015.

  1. ryokoryu

    ryokoryu Chieftain

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    ok I am looking for he in my start I plan on going for a science economy withseveral science cities and this is where I ended up at the start. I am looking to learn to play better so here is the first save am I in a good position or am I boned and if the latter is it because of my settler positions or something else I did or was it just a bad place to be.
    Oh and for watching games I am having a hard time finding them on youtube. I search for civ 4 bts games and most of the games that come up are civ 5 and if I do a -5 in hte search it also removes the civ 4 games. is there a person there I should be looking for specifically?
     
  2. ryokoryu

    ryokoryu Chieftain

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    here is the sav
     

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  3. yyeah

    yyeah Chieftain

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  4. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    3 cities in 825 BC is very bad. You should aim at settling at least 6-7 by this date. Then your choice for the third city is rather poor - it has no food. Three clams are still not used.
    You seem to neglect food while it is the most important thing in the game.

    It is impossible to give advice on sity placement because you didn't scout the area around the capital.

    Connect your cities to your neighbours, foreing trade routes yield more commerce than domestic ones.

    There are many other things to be improved. Since many mistakes were made in early game it's better to start over. Post 4000 BC save and screenshot and wait for advice. Then play 10-15 turns and ask again. This is a typical approach.
     
  5. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    There is a concept that many players adopt to called playing the map. You have 2 cities that could have benefitted from having the ability to build a workboat but you have not learned fishing.
    You have BW but it does not appear to be using it. It seem that you are more focused on the Glib than developing the empire.

    As Anysense stated above, you only have 3 cities. Some of us would have approximately 6-9 cities by now.

    Munich is settled in a poor location and a worker is building a road when that tile can be farmed for the moment. Walls are a not very useful in this game and a waste of hammers this early. If this been an always war game then it may be a useful building as long as there are units in the city to benefit from a wall's defensive boost.

    Why are you not using the scout to find out what is around? He is not an MP. Also why do you have a citizen hired instead of working a tile?

    You are missing a lot of fundamental game play ideas.

    Try a new game and think how you can select your technology path according to the surrounding terrain. BTW, just because you have Calendar resources do not beeline to Calendar. That is not an early game resource. Also, you have 3 cities and 2 MP's. Not useful. 3 workers were a plenty and it seem that you have automated them. If you just want to play the game, then that is fine. But if you want to get better at the game, then manage them. Good luck and have fun. I will play this map to T100 and post foe comparison.
     
  6. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    That went by quick.

    I switch the tech to Fishing and then back to Lit. Then focused on expanding to 6 cities.

    This is what it look like.
     

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  7. Neinet

    Neinet Chieftain

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    Thanks for posting a save.

    One of the most important rules to live by in Civ is that the most important resource is food. This may sound a bit counterintuitive, because it doesn't do anything directly, but it really is the most powerful thing in the game. The more population you have, the more production and commerce you have through working tiles, using specialists, and through slavery.

    Your tech path from the start should have gone for Fishing first, before anything else. This is because it provides the food resources you have, clams. This is probably the biggest reason why you started to fall behind in this game. Gold mines are good, but they provide 0 food, and so you need extra food to work them. You did this through farming tiles, but resources are much, much, more effective than the average tile.

    In Berlin, there are a couple things that stand out
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    First, and most obvious, is the lack of fishing boats on the two clams, and the fishing technology itself. Clams with fishing boats add up to 4 food and 2 commerce, which would make them both a complete improvement to the two farms that you currently have. This is the mian reason why this city is growing so slowly. This city really should be at 6 population (Due to that being the max you can support at the moment from happiness).

    Secondly, you lack a granary in this city. A granary is one of the most important buildings, as it effectively halves the amount of food you need to grow in size. You are also an expansive leader, which means it can be built twice as fast as when you play a normal leader.

    Third, you do have a good reason to build a library here, as it is producing a lot of science. However, at the moment, it is simply more important to be building more cities, as there are plenty of spots left, and you don't have a reason to be worried about maintenance at the moment.

    Assuming you have 6 population max (Due to your happiness cap) like you currently do, this city should be working tiles somewhat like this. You would be at your population cap if you had built fishing boats and a granary.

    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    To summarize the section about your capital, the most important points are to always improve food resources first and to build a granary. This will allow you to grow a city to a larger size, and making it simply better.

    Let's move on to Hamburg.

    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    First, it's a very understandable error, but scouts/explorers actually do not count as military units for the purposes of happiness. That is why you have an extra unhappiness in this city. (You get one "We fear for our safety" unhappiness per 3 city population, rounded down, but this is removed if there is any military unit in the city)

    Secondly, the tiles that you are working are currently not optimal. The governer's current judgement that you should work the grassland forest is better than having a citizen in your city.

    Third, what I said for the capital definitely applies here as well. Food is very important, including the clams that you do not have fishing for.

    Fourth, let's look at Hamburg's buildings. I like the granary, as it significantly helps the city grow. However, what's the purpose of building the monument here? What about the library?

    Fifth, let's look at the city placement of Hamburg. For this one, there is one place you could have built this city that is simply better in every way. Where do you think that is? Try to figure this out on your own before looking at the answer.

    Answer:
    Settling it one to the south is better as if you do that, you can work an additional food resource.

    Now finally, let's look at Munich.

    This city has a couple glaring problem. It has 0 food resources. Generally, if you're going to build a city without food resources, you need a very good reason. This city doesn't have any reasons of the sort.

    The city is working a grassland tile, which doesn't provide anything other than 2 food, and is building walls, which give very close to no benefit.

    Always build cities near a food resource.

    Let's talk about your workers next. None of them are really doing anything useful.

    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    This worker is building a road out of your territory.

    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    This worker just finished building a desert mine that will be worked by neither Hamburg nor Munich.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    This worker is building a road to a silk tile which has not been improved.

    All three of these are doing nothing that is useful for you at all. Instead of making them do this, have them work tiles for the use of your cities or chop down forests to produce settlers.

    Finally, concerning your tech path, I already mentioned that skipping fishing was not a good idea. You seem to have also gone straight for Literature, presumably in order to build the Great Library.

    Instead, it's a better idea to go for technologies that have more immediate benefits. For example, it's probably a better idea to get mathematics or alphabet, as aesthetics doesn't give you any tangible benefits.


    There's a lot to say, and a lot of mistakes to fix in this game. For now, I would start another game and try to learn from mistakes you made. In the next game, take it much more slowly. As Anysense suggested, post a starting save, and do 10-15 turn playing sessions before looking for advice. A lot can happen in 80 turns.
     
  8. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Chieftain

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  9. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    This. But it's not merely a concept many players do, it's what you have to do early on. At least to the point where you get your food resources hooked up and worked asap. 825BC without even researching the tech for your capital's only food resources is a crime. Gold is nice, but those clams are still way more important to work early on.

    If you don't have resource bubbles turned on while playing, turn them on and get used to having them turned on. And learn to recognize food resources (farm, pasture, fishing resources) as the most important resources in the game. Aim to always settle new cities right next to a food resource and have a worker there to improve it immediately. A city without food, like your third city, is usually not worth settling.

    Since food is the most important resource in the game, granary is the most important building in the game. A granary effectively doubles the food surplus in your cities. This should be the first build in your new cities most of the time. And it is the only building you want built in all cities. All other buildings are situational.

    Never build walls in peace time. Ever. If you are attacked, you can see the incoming stack and where it is heading, and have time to whip walls before the stack arrives.

    Apart from growing to work more tiles, food is much better for production than hammers as well, because of slavery. You can turn 1 pop to 30 hammers with a whip, or 2 pop to 60 hammers. If city is size 5 and you whip it down to size 3 to gain 60 hammers, it takes 27 food to grow back to size 5 (with granary). So there you just got 60 hammers for 27 food, or in other words, 1:food:>2:hammers:.
     
  10. ryokoryu

    ryokoryu Chieftain

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    it has been a while since I had the time to sit and play this but here is some saves to look at. all are from the same game.
     

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  11. vorlon_mi

    vorlon_mi Just One More Turn

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    What about walls as a prereq for a castle, for the economic benefit? Still not worth it? (says the guy who has not done the math)
     
  12. ryokoryu

    ryokoryu Chieftain

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    Anyone look at my new saves yet?
     
  13. elonin

    elonin Chieftain

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    Is it a bad idea to road to resources before doing the improvement?
     
  14. Lexicus

    Lexicus Warlord

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    If you have stone and/or are a Protective leader walls are even cheaper to build, too. I suggest that depending on the diplomatic situation it can make sense to build walls in peacetime.

    Depends. However in the early game you want to improve tiles first and road later because you get more turns of working the improved tile (and thus more output). I usually only build roads to resource tiles and for strategic movement in the early game (and of course to get trade routes), and only start filling in the roads after the workers have improved all important tiles for my cities.
     
  15. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    You build the improvement first when you want to be able to use the tile as soon as possible, i.e. you're about to grow or it's better than what your population is already using. If you already have the best tiles being worked and you won't grow before you can build both the improvement and the road, then it may make sense to build the road first to bring in other workers without movement penalty to increase overall worker efficiency, to connect cities, or to facilitate movement. Also if you're in that situation, consider whether your city is growing fast enough, and if your workers are optimally distributed.
     
  16. Tephros

    Tephros Caffeine Junkie

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    The economic benefit is usually short-lived given economics, but if you have stone or are unfortunate enough to be a protective leader, it may be worth it for that purpose. I've actually found the espionage benefit to be useful when I want to invest a little bit to steal a tech. I sometimes build walls + castles during peacetime because I want to be able to prolong a siege when the city gets attacked (so I do it on border cities that could potentially get attacked), but won't be able to build castles anymore once I have economics, or walls with rifling. While especially potent versus early siege weapons, they will make a difference for later ones as well because the city's defense reduction is 100% - gunpowder siege bombard percent.... in other words, it's equivalent to having a legendary cultural defense so it will take 9 cannon turns to knock it down... giving you time to bring in reinforcements or whip/draft more soldiers when desperate. Much of the time the enemy will still be using trebuchet's when they attack though, so with the castle+ walls it takes more like 10 times as long to knock down the defenses and attack.

    While it's true that the best defense is a good offense, sometimes you have long borders with countries and sometimes leaders bribe others to attack you on their behalf, so it's nice to anticipate the possibility with castles. You simply can't equip every city to be able to stop a stack of doom, but if you can delay them in time for your stack of doom to arrive, it works out well.
     
  17. Anysense

    Anysense Chieftain

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    350 BC is way too late for the first save. It looks somewhat better than in the first game, at least you learnd to expand faster. I can point out some things
    -Unnecessary buildings, for example Timbuktu does not need a lighthouse because it is not working any water tiles.
    -Walata could grow faster with a couple of farms.
    -Weird research path. First get techs that you need to use resources: Ag, AH, fishing, BW. Selfteching everything is far from optimal play. Skip unnecessary techs, get alpha and trade for everything you need.
    -Kumbi Saleh has expanded its borders 10 turns ago and fish is not used yet. Also the city is in wrong place, which makes impossible to use 2 fish resources.
    -You do not use whip. Whip e.g. a settler in Timbuktu, this will be much better than feeding 2 angry citizens.
    -Very late swords rush. 1000 years earlier would be a good date.

    I took a look at the 2nd save. You are building libraries and researching alpha in 425 AD... That must have been done thousands years ago.
    Your problems comes from mistakes made in early game, this is why you would be better post screens/saves from the very beginning and ask for detailed advice.
     
  18. ryokoryu

    ryokoryu Chieftain

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    The first save should be the first turn
     
  19. Neinet

    Neinet Chieftain

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    Anysense is talking about the 1st save after the starting save. I'd start a new game for advice.

    Start with a screenshot of the starting location and the starting save. Before making any moves, post your thoughts on the starting location, and your plan for the next 15 turns. Then, wait a while to get feedback and discuss your plans with others. Once you take the feedback of people into consideration, and have a clear idea of what you want to do and why, play the first 15 turns. Tell what happened during these turns. What went according to plan? What did not? Take screenshots showing your progress, and post the save at turn 15. Then, repeat the process. Take advice for the next turn set.
     
  20. ryokoryu

    ryokoryu Chieftain

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    The first save should be the first turn.
     

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