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Help Me Do Okay: The Ascent of Sitting Bull the Wise

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by The Oz-Man, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Chapter 2
    Uniting the Tribes

    (...man, I'm feeling sick, I'm very tired, it's my birthday, and here I am telling you guys to rip me a new one. Why do I do this to myself? :lol: )

    Sitting Bull could not let the thought slip from his mind. The Aztecs to the south were a strange people, yes, but there could be no doubt that they were kin to the Sioux of Cahokia Valley. Their customs, their dress, their appearance... there was something to it all. And yet, rather than seeking their fortunes in the wider world, they sat squatting in the dust, ruled by a vicious madman and his barbaric faith.

    The Aztecs were, themselves, Sioux, and if the Sioux people were to progress, they must be brought together. Under one ruler. Under Sitting Bull.

    At any cost.



    (Yes, my logic was that I'd already built the Barracks, and--as I'd been previously been told--if you build a thing, you should intend to use it. So yeah! Let's give this thing a try against all advice and possibly good sense! I went with learner_gamer's suggestion of not being afraid to stack whip angst for a while; the result is that our cities end the round small, but... well, you'll see.)

    As Cahokia's influence expanded, research was placed into Hunting to corral the elephants that lived to the north. Meanwhile, workers across the land were set to work chopping trees to make into chariots, while a harsh system of drafting was set in motion to bring new military recruits into the fold. The people of Cahokia and Poverty Point cried out in protest of their gentle leader's suddenly harsh methods, but there was little that could be done at this point. Sitting Bull had seen his people's future. The Dread Lady of his dream was not this harsh land; it was, in fact, Montezuma himself.

    As research on Hunting completed, and as Sioux Workers built roads both to Montezuma's southern cities to the northern elephants, Venerable Bede told the Bull that his efforts were good... but not that good.



    But Sitting Bull would not be swayed. As Montezuma's Aztecs founded a second city to the south of Poverty Point, the chariot-building program escalated. The southern hills held a wealth of gold, and Montezuma sought to steal it from under Sitting Bull's nose. This was, of course, unacceptable.

    New tribes soon arrived from the north. While the Aztecs and Maya seemed to show signs of kinship, this man's dress and physical features suggested an isolated people far into the northern tundra. He came from an isolated, paranoid people ruled by a stoic shogun, and while the leader traveled to the northern borders of the Sioux Nation to greet Sitting Bull, he refused to enter. Across this border, Sitting Bull exchanged respectful kowtows (for the shogun would not shake hands) with Tokugawa of Japan.



    (Ahahahahaha, it's Cap'm Grumpypants himself. I think we'll be cozying up really nicely with Pacal after this round.)

    Finally, it was time. Costs of sustaining the new military had spiraled out of control. However, the road to the south was complete, and Sitting Bull felt satisfied with his forces.

    It was time to unite the tribes.



    (Stupid me mis-clicked and entered the forest instead of the plains, so I lost a turn early in the war. Ah, well.)

    First, it was time to take care of Montezuma's forward base, Teotihuacan, which was garrisoned by a single archer. The city had tremendous potential, but under the yoke of the mad Aztec warlord, the Bull had no doubt that it would not prosper. A charioteer from Poverty Point died in the fighting, but otherwise, the Sioux forces succeeded in their goals.



    With cows, gold, and fertile flood plains, Sitting Bull decided to keep the city. The purse of gold earned by raiding its coffers powered the flagging capital's research into the sciences.

    At last, the charioteers found themselves at the gates of Tenochtitlan itself, where Montezuma himself was believed to be hiding. However, the city's poor garrison suggested otherwise:



    Montezuma himself, finding his people under siege, had retreated to the West, leaving behind a token force of archers who defended his glorious capital only because of their fanatical devotion to the Buddha. They would indeed have proven a formidable garrison... were it not for the fact that they were sorely outnumbered.



    Casualties on the Sioux side were great, but the initial attackers' sacrifice made the second wave's job that much easier.



    Tenochtitlan was kept, and the Aztec people within, overjoyed at their mad chief's retreat, pledged their allegiance to Sitting Bull. The remaining Chariots rushed to the west, where the final Aztec camp still stood in defiance of the Bull's campaign.

    As this was happening, in the distant east, Barbarian warriors--calling themselves the Order of the Black Standard--organized themselves against Sitting Bull's cause, initiating an ambush of the Sioux explorers.



    Finally, the charioteers arrived at the final Aztec camp: Tlatelolco.



    Unlike Teotihuacan and Tenochtitlan, this was no city. There were no noncombatants in its borders to spare; instead, there were only soldiers, still screaming their loyalty to Montezuma.

    They were brought to heel in short order.



    The camp was burnt to the ground, and every soldier within its gates was slaughtered... but still Montezuma was not found. Sitting Bull had no doubt that the Aztec people had been united completely with the Sioux, but their mad warlord, somehow, had eluded capture.

    As the Sioux quest for unified sciences was completed, however...



    ...the answer became clear.

    The Barbarian people--the Order of the Black Standard--had arrived at the gates of Poverty Point and Cahokia. With fierce war whoops, they descended on the Sioux villages, eager for plunder and chaos. The garrison at Poverty Point was upgraded to a Dog Solider (Maybe not that wise, in hindsight...), but still they advanced.

    And, cresting a nearby forested hill, caked with mud and leaves, cackling ferociously, there came their general... Montezuma.

    (DUN-DUN-DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!

    Yes, despite a bit of weird roleplaying there, Monty is done. A primary reason why I went to war was the gold site. So far, we've had bad luck with commerce, and Teotihuacan is in a very nice spot for that, with lots of nice land for cottages and the gold itself.

    We have a research choice:



    It might finally be time for Mysticism, but we've got a few options here, and with our surplus of gold, tech is going to come cheap for a couple of turns (we have less gold since I STUPIDLY upgraded Poverty Point's garrison to a Dog Soldier, so yeah, you guys chastise me for that). Teotihuacan and Tenochtitlan will pop their own borders since Buddhism is there, and those are the sites that really needs a border pop right now.

    One wildcard idea--and I admit that it might not be strong and therefore I'm going to bring it up with you all first--is to grab Masonry, then shoot for the 'mids and Philosophical-fueled Representation. Pacal already has Masonry (he's built the Great Wall), but Tenochtitlan has forests to chop, hills to mine, and a goodly amount of food. And--unlike last game--we have cities that can serve as secondary worker/settler pumps while it builds the wonder, so the opportunity cost is slightly less.

    We haven't gotten someone up to explore the north yet, but we have a settler raring to go in Cahokia. Is it time to get that northern elephant city up? Maybe something east of Cahokia?

    Here's the empire right now with current builds:



    A barb archer is on that hill near Poverty Point, and a warrior is lurking near the jumbos. Chariot forces are depleted, which has the benefit of stabilizing our economy but has--on the other hand--wiped out much of our barb-fighting force. Ah, well.

    After those military builds, I'm going to probably head toward libraries nearly everywhere with as many specialists as I can to get research back on track because, well...



    ...I took a gamble and it temporarily wiped us out. The good thing is that at least we're first to Writing on our continent! And anyway, GNP should recover soon once Teotihuacan gets going.

    Assets:



    More workers! Coming soon to a Great Sioux Nation near you!

    But the best part about foiling Monty is that Pacal is apparently way far east and we now have all of this land that we can settle...



    ...but, to be honest, I'm not that impressed. Look at how lousy that river land is. Yuck. Hopefully there's some food hidden near that gold, because the best thing to do with it right now looks to be a cow/gold/copper city with the food resource in the second tier of the BFC. Ewww.

    Diplomacy is sort of obvious at this point:

    1. Wait for Pacal to send loads of little Gandhis through hostile terrain to our land, then adopt Hinduism at the first opportunity, barring Tokugawa founding a religion (which seems unlikely).
    2. Road to Tokugawa's nearest cities.
    3. Hope Hinduism spreads there.
    4. Pry open the cockles of Tokugawa's heart and let the Hindu love-in begin!

    I'll open up borders with Pacal ASAP so tech trading will be possible; after all, Toku's not going to do so anytime soon.

    So next round should be quasi-peaceful, with settling and land-grabbing interspersed with harrowing anti-Barb adventures and lots of library building. We're behind, but I don't think catching up will be too hateful a task with the cunning use of scientists and libraries.

    So a few questions:

    1. Do I make a run for the Pyramids? Is that at all practical?
    2. Where do I settle next? Jumbotown? Town to the east?
    3. What should my tech path be?
    4. Finally, what about victory conditions? To be honest, I have an inkling to go cultural here since we'll have easy access to the two early religions and can direct our bulb paths toward others if we want them. Have I already screwed everything up to the point that culture would be impossible? I think space would be easier, but diplomacy should be easy enough at this point for us to go with whatever we want (barring the other continent getting uppity).

    Save is attached. Very curious to know your thoughts here. Thanks!)
     
  2. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    Hmm - why are there nearby corners of the map unexplored when you just had half a stack of chariots hanging around waiting for the war to start?

    I'm not immediately enamored of the pyramids idea - it's currently T70, Masonry is T74, and it will take you how many turns to construct it?

    Against this as well - you "only" have four cities right now. 500 hammers looks to me more like ThreeMoreCities than it does BigStoneTrophy[tm]

    (Obviously if you have a quarry to connect, that would change the math some).
     
  3. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Yeah, I just did sort of a "test round" and the 'mids are a God-awful idea, so scratch that. I didn't play long enough to see if I'd get beaten, but I was not at all impressed with the build time. Too much good land to settle, and Masonry sucks compared to Pottery and Mysticism right now. Pacal will like us better if we run HR anyway.
     
  4. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    there are long distances laying before you, you should think about economy and how to fuel further expansion.

    Currency will be high priority for you.
     
  5. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    Firstly :bday: - and I hope you feel better soon.

    Well done on taking down Monty. IMHO, this is worth doing for two reasons, one of which you mentioned in the text: (i) the gold, which will provide much needed early commerce and happiness (so it’s doubly valuable) and (ii) taking Tenochtitlan which, being a capital, gave you a chance to nab the one city your start hasn’t really granted you: a proper GP farm. It’s hard to overstate the importance of (ii) IMHO, given that SB is philo.

    The lesson re: stacking whip weariness meanwhile, (which appears to have already worn off), will stand you in very good stead IMHO as you progress up the levels. Very well done! :goodjob:

    Going forward, I agree with VoU: the mids is likely best passed up at this point. If they go late, they’re still possible to get even now...but I don’t see stone, you’re not industrious and those forests could also be used to chop in other things, like a library to get you some scientists and a philo powered GS to aid the recovery. You have plenty of cash at the mo’ but you’ll burn through it quick enough.

    IMHO, the questions you’ve raised are good ones, but I’d actually like to hear your thoughts at this stage. Can I therefore ask, what do you see your priorities being at this point (even if just in bullet point form) re: builds, tech order and other things you should now be doing? You’ve given yourself the luxury of a test playthrough from the save – has that crystallized your thoughts a little more?

    FWIW, my earlier mentioned 1560 BC save is attached below. Please note that the builds are purely placeholders...and apologies for the lack of exploration....I wasn’t intending (at the time anyway) to take the shadow any further. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  6. WelshGandalf

    WelshGandalf King

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    Good work on the Aztecs. I hate them with a passion so probably would've done the same thing as you. :)

    This seems like a good time to sak if you know about binary research?

    Basically, stick your resaerch slider at 0%, start building libraries and only when your libraries start coming up (your capital especially) move the slider back to 100% (you will have lots of gold now to fund it). This is because your commerce is more efficiently used with a high slider and a library (+25% beakers), so save up gold now so you can make the maximum use of your libraries.
     
  7. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    @Oz: Thought I’d follow up my earlier post with a couple of bullet points (in no particular order) representing one possible short term plan. There are of course plenty of other possibilities.

    (i) Garrison cities
    (ii) Fog bust / secure borders
    (iii) Find a way to increase happy cap
    (iv) Build library/ies for scientist(s)
    (v) Tech pottery (granaries and cottages) and mysticism (border pops)
    (vi) Explore
    (vii) Settle ivory / cows

    Oh, and build another worker or two. :D

    With more land explored, you can then make an informed decision re: how hard / whether to REx or not, where to settle and what further techs you might look towards.
     
  8. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    I was thinking the same thing about Pottery and Mysticism; just haven't gotten around to posting it (busy teacher is busy and all that). I'll try running 0% research for a little while while libraries get built. I've never tried binary research, but then again, I've never done a chariot rush like this with anyone except the Persians or Egyptians, either. Since this series is often about tactics beginning players ignore, that might be something worth showing off.

    Ivory/Cow city is next, and I'm going to get some Dog Soldiers and Chariots out for barb-busting as well. 2W of the cows east of Cahokia looks like a good city site as well--some green hills, some riverside tiles, and outer-ring food. It should leave room for a town on the northern end of that peninsula post-Calendar since the bananas are in the outer ring.

    We're hard up for other happy resources right now, but there's the possibility of silver or furs in the tundra around Tenochtitlan (soon to be renamed Standing Rock along with Crow Creek for Teotihuacan--real Lakota/Sioux reservations), but we're probably out of possible plantation resources. This to me makes Monarchy a priority for mid-game happiness, and of course running HR will help us get cozy with Pacal. There are whales off Tenochtitlan/Standing Rock, but to be honest they're (as usual) in a hard position to get.

    Short-term, though, if we have no more happiness options? I'm tempted to go from Mysticism toward Meditation and Priesthood. We're not going to adopt Buddhism (unless maybe if Tokugawa does), but building temples will help. Earlier Temples will of course help if we decide to go cultural.

    SPEAKING OF WHICH. Now's probably a good time to scout out our peaceful victory conditions, which may well determine our forthcoming tech path. Space is, of course, always a nice default option, but if we want to pursue culture, we'll have to start soon. Personally, I think it's not a bad option, with Cahokia, Teotihuacan/Crow Creek, and the future city east of Cahokia as decent possibilities. With two early religions and a Philosophical leader who could probably help us bulb others, I think it has potential, but we'll need to get started laying the groundwork soon. If we go that route, I'll probably tech Aesthetics and Maths soon, hoping to pick up Alpha in trade.

    If we go for space, Alpha becomes a higher priority, but of course, it won't do us any good before Pacal and Tokugawa meet, which might take a little while since Pacal's going to be doing all of the work. I'll still work in Aesthetics, but the goal will be the Great Library instead of Music.

    Either way, we'll have to fit in Currency soon, so Maths might be worth pursuing after Pottery and Mysticism.

    We could also go Diplomatic, but we'd have to count on making nice with the other continent when they might already be making nice with each other; Pacal will be easy to befriend, but Toku's going to be a pain.

    If I play a round tonight (not ruling it out), I won't commit toward a victory condition, so if you guys want to discuss that, go ahead. The goal will be doing more exploring, settling a couple more cities, and getting tech back on track.

    Thanks!
     
  9. CreeDakota

    CreeDakota King

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    I like Pottery but what is the appeal of mysticism? I thought I just read you talking yourself out of it since you have buddism for border pops? I would tech around math, alpha, and currency and plan to trade the religious line with Pacal.

    As for VC, I think Space or diplo will be easier to achieve than culture. Your War has set you up to get Big, Free land is your greatest advantage right now. Culture is usually best achieved by staying small and maximizing tech, infastructure and wonders. Plus you lack both marlbe and stone. If you are set on Culture as you victory condition aesthtics for Shewdgon Pagoda and Statue of Zeus are attractive since you can build them both at 2x hammers.

    For myself if I were playing your game my next set would focus on the basics, fog busting, scouting, settling new cities, specialzing cities and buddying up to Pacal for a trade partner.
     
  10. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    just to demonstrate how going writing before BW can improve the attack date for elepults I redid the start and got attack date 400 BC (instead of 1 AD) on monty.

    it's 780 AD and I have 16 cities, pacal has 3 left, monty dead, I extorted some techs from pacal, time to recover economy and maybe finish pacal 10 turns later.

    I took the 1 AD save from previous too and did a lot worse then this (like pacal had insta LB's when I attack, progressed too slowly etc)
     
  11. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    The next round is played, but I'm still sick and now have a stack of essays to critique thanks to missing conference day yesterday... due to illness. Vicious cycle, yes. I'll try to get a write-up in the next couple of days.
     
  12. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    ...man, after that last knock-down drag-out round, I can't get into posting this one. I'll do so this weekend for sure, but this is my third try at it and things are still moving at a snail's pace. We've got eight cities now, a Settler ready to get a ninth (for a bunch of :) resources), and another Settler on the way. The economy's crashed (but it's salvageable with micro and we've got what's going to be a really great commerce city up near Japan--and, yes, it's on a hill so Toku can send his troops there to die if things come to that), and Pacal's running away with things tech-wise. I'll put the save up for you guys to look at it if you want to, but I'm tempted to give this round yet another run-through if you guys think I've screwed everything up.

    Victory condition will be space or diplo, by the way--I do want to try culture, but we'll do it another time.
     
  13. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    @Oz: You’re doing OK - I guess it’s not easy to write up a credit crunch. As in the real world, the key is getting to currency so you can print money / build wealth.

    IMHO, the most obvious issue needing to be addressed is the need to grow your cities. Building early granaries would help enormously here...something like totem pole > granary (> lighthouse in Tenochtitlan) > library would likely be the way to go. Talking of Tenochtitlan, I’d temporarily stop running the scientists to grow, whip a granary and lighthouse, and then run them again whilst you look to slow growth whilst whip weariness wears off.

    Another point worth raising is why go to currency via maths? Are you intending to war with Pacal, or was it because Pacal got an early alpha? If not, then in situations like this where you want to balance RExxing with economic recovery, you can also consider alpha > currency, which offers the opportunity to build research once alpha is in, to keep your REx going. Going maths will of course work, but you need to compensate by building extra libraries (rather than a barracks) to run science specialists to propel you to currency > CoL (via building wealth).

    Depending on whether there’s any food in the vicinity of the silver meanwhile, I’d consider settling on the furs (once you can afford the site). That’ll give you two sources of happiness and some much needed early commerce from one city. Fish / horse city might then be left for another site – which you want to fogbust to ensure barbs don’t nab it. I’d certainly be looking to settle something in that vicinity as opposed to fish / cow, which is being roaded into on your west coast. You also need to consider cottaging the sugar in the capital. FWIW, I’d have also settled Chaco SE (assuming I was going to settle it at this stage) to bring the cows into the inner ring, again for faster growth. Perhaps a better option though would’ve been to look to raze (or fogbust to prevent the settling of) the barb city Anasazi and settle NW of the bananas (so it could work more cottages). Another worker or two might also be nice.

    One last point: any reason why you built an academy in the capital? FWIW, I’d have been more inclined to settle the first GS in Tenochtitlan (since it will give you more beakers than an early academy in the capital as your slider bottoms out) – and then use the second one for an academy, also in Tenochtitlan. An academy in the capital is standard play, but (i) with so little good cottage-able/ riverside land, it’s not going to give you that many beakers there - none at present; whilst (ii) the obvious spot to get your early science from IMHO is Tenochtitlan (where you can comfortably run scientists)...leaving your capital to work some good hammer tiles and the odd riverside cottage for commerce instead. BTW what do you plan to do with the GS about to pop...and did you check the demographics screen early in the game to give you clues about rival AIs on the map?

    PS: If you are really intent on replaying the round again, do you have a save prior to the end of round? The reason I ask is that, looking at the last (written up) round, the anomalous build is the last settler; IMHO, some of the hammers that went into it would’ve been better diverted into a unit to fogbust the ivory city ahead of the settler’s arrival.
     
  14. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Chapter 3
    Black Standards, Red Ink

    The veterans of the Unification War had no time to rest. The archers and warriors of the Black Standard now stood on the outskirts of Poverty Point and Cahokia, shouting grim threats to all who dared approach. And among them, Montezuma himself stood, bow in hand, his incoherent blood screams rising above the tumult.

    In these times of chaos, Sitting Bull turned to those chiefs who would listen to his entreaties--in this case, only Pacal II of the Maya.



    These were times of great economic hardship, when the bold Sioux people struggled to improve the land surrounding Teotihuacan while being harried by Montezuma's barbarians from the east. Even as far north as Poverty Point, the Bull's loyal Dog Soldiers came to blows with these madmen.



    Settlers from Cahokia, seeing the chaos that had sprung forth, hurried to the north, founding Mound City among the hills there.



    (That is a horrible screenshot. Jeebus. It's two tiles north of the elephants.

    Explorers further north found Japan situated far to the north, but the stubborn shogun still refused to open his borders for exploration. Japan, for now, would have to remain a mystery. More importantly, however, the race was on for these borderlands, which housed shining gold and sturdy copper reserves.



    In this time, a new settlement was established east of Cahokia, in a hillside area that the Sioux had dubbed Chaco Canyon (forgot to get a screenie of it, but you can see it here in a bit). And despite the uncertainty of the untamed lands between the Maya and the Sioux, men of faith still made the perilous journey west. In what was known in the Hindu lands as the Great Enlightenment, these missionaries--harried by Barbarians--sought to enlighten the Sioux in the ways of the Mayan faith.



    (There were a LOT of these. Hey, if that's how you want to spend your hammers, Pacal, you go right ahead.)

    The secrets of Mysticism arrived at last, and Sioux across the land began erecting Totem Poles to bolster the culture of the land. Sitting Bull tolerated such shows of vanity--the Sioux would have to prove that they were great when the Maya themselves seemed so relatively advanced. However, more was needed. The scientists appearing in Libraries from Tenochtitlan to Poverty Point spoke of the need for an intellectual revolution, one that could also spur economic growth. The study of Mathematics began.



    (There's Chaco Canyon! I think it's a pretty strong spot even if the best resources are in the outer ring. It's been working cottages for the time being. That barb city to the north is founded on top of a rice resource--taking care of it before Pacal captures it should be a priority next round.)

    In 575 BC, the Great Enlightenment had achieved its goal:



    Old Sitting Bull himself saw promise in the Hindu idea of rebirth. He remembered Light Hair and all of his old wives, imagining their spirits to exist somewhere in this world... or beyond. If Mayan spirituality indeed held the answer, then Sitting Bull himself would allow himself to be converted.

    Not long after that, the race to the northern resources was complete... and Sitting Bull had won. Settlers from Mound City had crossed the desert hills to reach their destination: a shining plateau overlooking the fertile plains of the west and the resources of the east. The Sioux dubbed it Mesa Verde, and a Totem Pole was constructed to inform the loner Tokugawa that these lands were Sioux and would be for all time.



    (Probably the best place to rope in the gold and the copper. I figured it was also important to establish a hillside city for Toku to throw his Samurai at later on if he wants. It may well have a cultural battle on its hand down the road, but it's going to be a great commerce spot--especially late game.)

    A student of Sioux mathematics, Gottfried Leibniz, rose to prominence in Tenochtitlan, and he traveled north to construct an Academy wherein Sitting Bull himself could join in the studies alongside the scientists of the newly christened library there.



    (Probably a mistake, as learner_gamer said, but an early Academy isn't too bad anywhere. Cahokia still had higher scientific output than Tenochtitlan at this point, which will probably change when we start running Caste, so I figured it was the best short-term move.)

    In 375 BC, a lavish palace arose in Mutal, the Mayan capital:



    (Yeah, I don't think we could've gotten it. Pacal has stone, too. I'm thinking we may end up taking care of him later on.)

    The city of Snaketown--named for the cottonmouth snakes that lived in the hills--was founded to the east, striking into the heart of the untamed lands and promising to bring even more gold into the Great Sioux Nation.



    (There's a flood plain in the spot to feed it. It's not great, but it'll work the gold and pay for more expansion.)

    And with the study of Mathematics completed...



    ...Sitting Bull turned to his advisers.

    (Here's what we can research:



    Currency is a pretty obvious next pick, but Meditation might not be too bad either since Pacal doesn't have it. Don't fret too much about the crashed economy; I can stabilize it by rearranging micro everywhere, even if I found a new city, which I've got a Settler out to do.

    We've got our second Great Scientist coming soon, and right now, he'll bulb Alphabet for us. That should knock quite a few turns off of Currency if you guys think that's a good idea. It'll also allow us to trade techs with Tokugawa...

    ...well, okay, it'll allow us to see what Tokugawa's researched and get a spy up there to explore his land. :p

    Pacal has Alphabet now, and he's willing to give up some crap for Maths:



    I'm disinclined to take that unless you guys think it's a good idea to squeeze out those beakers wherever we can.

    Here's maps...



    Chinook's not too bad--I might keep it. It's on a hill, though, so it might be a pain to get to. Anasazi is getting razed and refounded--probably 1S so it can work both of those green hills.

    Mesa Verde should probably be building a Granary rather than a Library, huh? I'm mainly building it for the culture, but it's already got a Totem Pole.




    For want of a better site to get both resources, I'll probably have the Settler found on top of the furs ASAP. We need vertical growth, which means we need happiness. We also, however, need Currency, which means delaying techs that can get us that happiness. Founding another city on top of the furs that can rope in the silver seems like a reasonable stopgap, since building our cities bigger will help pay for any other acquisitions.

    At this point, though, I'm worried about Pacal snatching up the nicer sites in these parts. I've got another Settler coming unless you guys think that's unwise, and the spot I'm considering is 1SE of the horses, both to bring in that resource and get some nice riverside commerce tiles.

    Here are Pacal's lands:



    His capital looks like a production monster, which is probably how he's been able to snatch up wonders like that. I wouldn't mind taking it off his hands.

    Roll your eyes and wretch at the Demographics screen:



    Woof. One good thing is that we've probably got more land than anybody else right now, and the sites we have will start paying off soon.

    And assets:



    So there it is. I'm committed to either space or diplo now, as I said, so my short-term goal will be stabilizing things enough to commit to that goal. War with Pacal is probably coming, but not anytime soon, and certainly not before Optics.

    Speaking of which, how hard of a beeline should I do towards reaching the other continent here? I'm always inclined to make contact with other AIs as soon as possible to start greasing the wheels of diplomacy a little bit, and if we backstab Pacal, we're going to want someone to trade techs with. It's risky, and there are obviously more important economic techs in front of that in terms of priority (Code of Laws, Calendar, Currency, Civil Service, etc.), but it's something I'm considering.

    The save is above. Really eager for your feedback on this one since I'm sort of uncertain about this round. Thanks!)
     
  15. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    I'd forgotten that Alpha would let me build research! Yeah, that probably would've been more helpful. To be honest, I went Maths because it's also a prerequisite to Calendar.

    I'm less concerned about barbs than I am Pacal. I've seen his settlers poking around. I'm trying to keep him as contained as possible since his land is sort of blah and there's lots of green in the frontiers there. The other Settler being built now is for that site.

    Your idea (using the capital for hammers) is probably better than what I ended up doing. As I mentioned in the write-up, Cahokia was still putting out more beakers than Tenochtitlan. I was running scientists literally anywhere I could to keep research going as the slider dropped, which may have stifled both growth and production. Managing specialists is probably going to a big part of this game, so I'll post more about it in the future as more libraries pop up--and, of course, as we move toward CoL.

    Sadly, I don't. I should save more often. :(
     
  16. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    Code:
    ; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
    MaxAutoSaves = 500
    
    ; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves.  0 means no autosave.
    AutoSaveInterval = 1
     
  17. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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  18. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    Once again, nice write up. :) Yes, some of the demographics aren’t yet great – but settle and develop all that land and you’ll be in great shape.

    FWIW, I think the goals you set for the round were pretty spot on. Indeed, I was going to humbly submit that, going forward, it might also be a good idea to put together a similar set of bullet points at the end of your write up, to outline your thoughts ahead of (i) the next round and (ii) input from the peanut gallery. You could then revise those bullet points if needed and simply print them at the head of the next turn’s report as goals for that round.


    All that said, looking at the write-up and screenies posted this round, I think there’s an inconsistency between your actions and this goal here:

    "Found additional cities with an emphasis on commerce."

    FWIW, I think the inconsistency becomes most obvious re: the settlement of Mesa Verde. I understand your thinking re: nabbing a hill site, but PRO SB has access to cheap walls. Fortify a few units behind those walls and – if Toku were to send a large stack – build or whip a cata or two, and I think you’ll still comfortably keep a walled flatland city...especially when you consider the effect of the totem pole on archers too.

    IMHO, Mesa Verde would’ve been much, much better 2W – with all those floodplains to provide commerce in keeping with your third goal. That may have opened up the copper to Toku, but here you had two choices: (i) settle it over Chaco or (ii) let Toku have it. Key here IMHO is whether there’s seafood in the vicinity of the copper to feed a city in that area, assuming you’d settled 2W. Bear in mind too that you’re PRO, have a resourceless UU and access to jumbos.

    Re: your feedback to my earlier questions (thanks for which BTW):

    Re: maths > currency. Given that you have sugar for early happiness and bananas for health, maths for calendar is fine. As mentioned, I’m really just trying to deduce your thought process, to understand what plan is in place. :) As an aside BTW, if you direct your chariot in Pacal’s territory to explore all the coast at the bottom of your land mass, so you can see all the coastal tiles all the way to Mayapan, sailing (a calendar pre-req) would also open up trade routes with Pacal. At the moment, OB is not getting you any much needed commerce from him.

    Re: furs city. As mentioned previously, before settling the furs / silver site, don’t forget to check if there’s any seafood in the vicinity of the silver.

    In other points:

    Re: maths trade. If that’s all Pacal’s willing to give you for maths, my guess is that he’s researching it. Since he won’t trade poly + sailing, which would be ideal, I’d be inclined to beg for poly and then trade maths for sailing and archery.

    Re: scientist. Personally, I’d settle him for the extra beakers whilst you tech to currency and beyond.

    Re: tech. Currency > CoL here for me. IMHO, you then need to look to trade for a few other techs and decide for certain when you want to war against Pacal. IMHO, catas / jumbos may actually yet prove fine - provided you’re willing to stack whip weariness again. Another bout of scouting as CoL finishes might help here.

    Re: other continent. The timing depends in part IMHO when you want to war with Pacal as noted above. It also depends in part on the information I deduced from the demographics screen spoilered below. FWIW, I’m not a huge fan of a super early civil service here, unless you plan to cottage the capital ASAP.

    Re: fish / horse city. IMHO, SW of the FP is better. You can cottage the FP and then chop in a totem pole to speed up a border pop to the fish.

    Re: espionage. Any reason you’re splitting your EP?

    Re: VC. Agree that space or diplo are defaults but, depending on whether Pacal builds the AP, this might be possible too. BTW, the information I mentioned that can be deduced from the demographics screen (which can help guide the choice of VC) is enclosed in a spoiler below – purely in case you want to maintain the suspense re: who else is out there.

    Spoiler :
    Taking a look at the demographics screen during the early turns reveals that:

    (i) Mansa Musa’s in the game
    (ii) There are no creative civs in the game.
    (iii) There’s at least one CHAR civ and
    (iv) At least one EXP civ out there.

    Of course, the CHAR and EXP traits could be shared by a civ.
     
  19. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    How can you figure out who else is out there just by looking at early demographics? I'd assumed someone else Financial is out there just by virtue of some of the Commerce stuff, but how'd you peg Mansa specifically?
     
  20. learner gamer

    learner gamer King

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    Checking the demographics screen after ending the first turn, you see that max soldiers is 20,000. Now if my maths is right, I think that, at this level, only Mansa can get that number thanks to having access to his skirmishers. To be precise, I understand Mansa gets 2,000 soldiers for starting with mining, another 4,000 for TW, 6,000 for archery and another 8,000 (for a total of 20,000 soldiers) for having access to two skirmishers at 4,000 soldiers each.

    The mechanics behind the soldiers number are all in that article "The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen" I posted previously. :)
     

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