Help Me Get Better on Immortal!

[dankok8]

@sampsa

Thanks for your help! I got some questions.

Re: Fogbusting

I know that the plains tile is fogbusted. I just couldn't keep the Warrior 1S on the forest because there is a barb Archer wandering there and the Warrior was injured from a previous fight. When I saw the Archer I retreated 1N.

The southern tile with the red X... why is that tile not fogbusted? Isn't it one tile away from a tile illuminated by my borders? Funny enough I think my southern Warrior just moved from the tile your Warrior was at the previous turn because I thought the area marked with X was safe. I don't understand that one why it isn't fogbusted.

Re: Granary

I haven't had a chance to whip a Granary because I just discovered Pottery on turn 49. Which means I'm about 2 turns late in discovering it compared to you... Hmm. It also seems you founded Sevilla earlier than me. Although is it really good to found Sevilla before Pottery when you can't build a Cottage? I'm asking because I don't know. The Oasis tile is nice but either Barcelona or Sevilla can work it and the other city is stuck working an unimproved FP? That sounds bad.

That is very strange line of thought... In general, you should never tech or do anything because AI might do something (if you settle next to Monty, you should do something ofcourse, cause the outcome is very likely.) instead you should do your thing (typically play diplo until you get military edge and ).

300BC... what good would be archers vs 10 HA or chariots vs 10 swords. C'mmon, really what about knights in early AD... 300BC ...by that time get alpha (by trade preferably), trade for IW, check if metal avalaible... Or bulb maths tech, construction, trade for phants, mass whip, kill Gilgamesh (I think War Elephants are reasonable for 300BC).

Well of course you're right. I've seen lots of high level games and many such players get away with a meager military for the first 100+ turns and often get away with it. Like you said the AI often doesn't declare but if they do... it's game over. I guess I should be ok. I'm overthinking this. I also have my fogbusting Warriors to act as a sentry net. If Gilga sends a stack, I should see it several turns in advance as it trudges across the desert.

I recently watched a Lain video (it was on Deity of course) and he said "if Monty declares on me now..." and he mentioned about a 20% chance of it happening that he's done. I guess play at high levels requires a certain degree of gambling. If a crazy AI decides to declare war on you with your pants down, there is nothing you can do. You lose the game and move on. That isn't really the case here but I'm overthinking the situation. Good scouting, watching for WHEOOHRN and having a metal hooked up should give me enough warning.

 

[sampsa]

Re: Fogbusting

I know that the plains tile is fogbusted. I just couldn't keep the Warrior 1S on the forest because there is a barb Archer wandering there and the Warrior was injured from a previous fight. When I saw the Archer I retreated 1N.

The southern tile with the red X... why is that tile not fogbusted? Isn't it one tile away from a tile illuminated by my borders? Funny enough I think my southern Warrior just moved from the tile your Warrior was at the previous turn because I thought the area marked with X was safe. I don't understand that one why it isn't fogbusted.

OK, understand running away from an archer. It's also a very good habit not to take fights you don't need to, even at "winning" odds.

The red X is not fog busted, because there is no unit within two tiles of it. Your borders fog bust only the tiles that the illuminate, not two tiles away.

Re: Granary

I haven't had a chance to whip a Granary because I just discovered Pottery on turn 49. Which means I'm about 2 turns late in discovering it compared to you...

I wouldn't 1-pop whip a granary in capital, since the -penalty is the same as when 3-pop whipping a settler. Bigger whips are better. A double chop is the way to finish an EXP granary at least in this case.

Hmm. It also seems you founded Sevilla earlier than me. Although is it really good to found Sevilla before Pottery when you can't build a Cottage? I'm asking because I don't know. The Oasis tile is nice but either Barcelona or Sevilla can work it and the other city is stuck working an unimproved FP? That sounds bad.

It is absolutely good to found cities asap! Especially Sevilla here, since with two workerT investment it's connected to your capital giving +2. Also, working unimproved FP is not bad at all. That city is then generating 312 (+1 if connected) per turn. How could that ever be worse than nothing? Even if we say == that city would need to cost 6 per turn to "break even". 3rd city on immortal might cost something like 4 per turn at most. And in reality, is much better than unless really starving for .

I recently watched a Lain video (it was on Deity of course) and he said "if Monty declares on me now..." and he mentioned about a 20% chance of it happening that he's done.

I think on deity there are positions where you can't really do much if you get plotted on early. I don't think that's the case at all on immortal. As Snowbird said, these immortal AI early attacks are often very weak. 3 archers behind walls can hold off a lot, believe me.

 

[sampsa]

Some more analysis and screenshots from my game, spoilers mostly out of habit

Spoiler :

With high -tiles, I tend to whip the 1st settler (esp with SPI). Yes, this is a very late 2nd city (T40), so not sure if it's the best. 121/100 in settler now, another chop in this turn so 1-turning 2nd worker at least. Then workers chop, 3rd settler out T45. Times well with pottery, next chops into a granary. Now ready to grow back to 6 to 3-pop whip another settler.

T47 ready to settle 3rd. Timed nicely with the road, so Seville and Madrid are insta-connected. Screenshots before and after settling with 0% slider to show how much this city costs.

Settling generates +4 (city center, flood plain, trade routes in two cities) so it seems to cost 4. Is this city worth founding asap? YES. It's making 31 per turn. It's the same as your capital would be 1 size bigger working a wet wheat (51, citizen eats 2). I'd be willing to pay quite a lot of actually to get this city founded asap, because the sooner this city is ripe to work all the cottages around it the better. And in this case, I'm paying nothing.

From here I started to build nothing in capital (choose a build, hit 1 in city screen) to store the overflow. I think I forgot to turn avoid growth on in capital for one turn, which would probably win quite a lot of ... Worker went to road the oasis tile to get stone connected (and less importantly, +1 in Barcelona). When connected, overflow into Mids, when size 6, switch to settler, whip next turn, back to working on Mids chopping with 2 workers. Worker whipped in Barcelona, goes to improve corn for 4th city. Same with Seville, switch to worker size 2, whip when available.

Straight-forward from here. As you can see, project Mids delays the cottages quite a bit, but it's not a huge deal as 31 is not a horrible tile at all. And the +3 from Mids will be huge.


edit: looking at this now, maybe settling the Sevilla-spot first is just better? Doesn't have an oasis, but since we have the wheel T38 could already connect the cities, making +2, winning 1 per turn compared to an unconnected city working an oasis.

 

[Harv]

Hi! I built four cities and a bunch of warriors and a couple of chariots and founded 4 disconnected cities and forgot to research pottery and cottage up 8 tiles. I thought of this when I read the explanation of 6 disconnected cities with no commerce.

The idea of building nothing is interesting.

Question: Is dumping hammers into Stonehenge an idea?

 

[sampsa]

Question: Is dumping hammers into Stonehenge an idea?

Yes, thought about it certainly, but the thing is that usually > so I rather stored the to dump them directly to the Mids when stone is connected. Maybe could put into Stonehenge elsewhere, but it was built T48 so didn't even have masonry by that. I did fail gold to GW a lot of course.

Will comment your game later today, Harv.

 

[dankok8]

The red X is not fog busted, because there is no unit within two tiles of it. Your borders fog bust only the tiles that the illuminate, not two tiles away.

I knew that. Not sure what I tried to say or am I blind? Yea that tile needs fogbusting and it could have cost me dearly.

I wouldn't 1-pop whip a granary in capital, since the -penalty is the same as when 3-pop whipping a settler. Bigger whips are better. A double chop is the way to finish an EXP granary at least in this case.

I generally 1-pop whip very rarely unless it's an emergency.

It is absolutely good to found cities asap! Especially Sevilla here, since with two workerT investment it's connected to your capital giving +2. Also, working unimproved FP is not bad at all. That city is then generating 312 (+1 if connected) per turn. How could that ever be worse than nothing? Even if we say == that city would need to cost 6 per turn to "break even". 3rd city on immortal might cost something like 4 per turn at most. And in reality, is much better than unless really starving for .

I was speaking strictly in commerce terms. But yes you're right of course. It's shocking to me that you founded that city and immediately broke even. The city didn't even cost anything.

I think on deity there are positions where you can't really do much if you get plotted on early. I don't think that's the case at all on immortal. As Snowbird said, these immortal AI early attacks are often very weak. 3 archers behind walls can hold off a lot, believe me.

Oh I know. 3 Archers behind a Wall and I'm safe but I'm worried about them pillaging my improvements as well. Archers are passive defense and I can't kill them if they just decide to stick around. Sometimes I try to build improvements on the other side not facing the AI or barbs for that reason. But yea I'm overthinking it. My bigger worry is getting the early build orders and economy straight and building the Pyramids in a timely fashion.

When should I go for Writing and build Libraries because Rep won't help much if I can't run Scientists?

 

[Harv]

It still gives you a bigger happy cap, if that helps you!
(says the guy who built the pyramids, then ran not a single scientist for 25 turns)

 

[sampsa]

Indeed. The initial benefit of Mids is not boosted scientists, it's the boosted -cap. If your cities have good tiles, you should mostly be aiming to grow to -cap before anything else. On this forum people often give the advice "whipping is good", but more often than not "grow to -cap to work cottages" is at least as important. The latter generates maximum amount of , this former maximum amount of . So it entirely depends on what phase your empire is in.

Qin has gems for trade and you should aim to get it asap. Sheep for gems when available!

I generally 1-pop whip very rarely unless it's an emergency.

Good. On this map the fp-cities don't have hammers, so you should be 1-pop whipping the granaries at some point.

 

[sampsa]

When should I go for Writing and build Libraries because Rep won't help much if I can't run Scientists?

I went writing before AH, but I think it might be better the other way around. Cities are not ready to whip libraries yet and judging from the auto saves the southern corn spot (best spot for specialists) was ready to start running them T89. I already had CoL by that point. Maybe sometimes it makes sense to "sacrifice" a city to run two scientists to get an academy in capital, but I don't think an academy is good for non-PHI cuirassier-strategies, it only delays the attack date.

 

[Harv]

Did I count 11 flood plain tiles on Sampsa’s game?

 

[dankok8]

Played a bit more till turn 63 (1480 BC)

Spoiler :

I actually didn't continue from 2040 BC but 2560 BC. I replayed the last 13 turn run to fix a few inefficiencies Sampsa talked about. I managed to finish Pottery a turn earlier and as soon as Sevilla was founded Worker was already on it building a Cottage. Barcelona whipped a Worker for 1 pop. No way I could fit a Granary in Madrid by that turn no matter how hard I tried though but definitely did make some progress by the turn 48 landmark compared to my last save. I finally understood what you guys meant about pre-chopping and it was slowing me down last time. Workers this time are busy Cottaging FP's ASAP. And the fogbusting issues were fixed. Northern Warrior managed to stay on the forest and the southern Warrior didn't manage to get me killed by policing all the proper tiles.

After building the first Cottage for Barcelona 1N of Oasis (most efficient no need to walk far; cap popped borders), I roaded the Oasis tile to connect to trade network and still have time to build another Cottage before it gets to size 3. Madrid is unhappy because it has no garrison so it's essentially size 4. I could grow to size 6 very quickly then whip/chop another Settler to settle 1E of Corn and then build the Pyramids full throttle. Madrid has little production so it will be mostly chopped.

Researched AH before Writing because cities aren't ready to whip them out any time soon. Discovered Horses in the BFC which should help defend. None of the AI's have Writing and I know that because they don't offer OB.

.

 

[sampsa]

Comments

Spoiler :

I think the 3rd fog buster is moot. It' much more important to keep capital happy! You are losing at least 2 1 every turn now because you don't have a warrior in capital. What tiles are your 3rd warrior fog busting even? Only the one it's standing on, even the southern ivory is fog busted as Gilgamesh has vision on it via coast. If a barbarian spawns there, it will go towards Gilgamesh anyway.

I'm not really sure what went wrong with your capital management, but you are behind by a lot. T63 I have settled 4th city 5T ago (3-pop whipped from cap) and I have 370 towards Mids. I have only one cottage though, but I think expanding and securing Mids are more important.

Still, I don't think it's going bad at all. Whip settler in cap when you reach 6, improve sheep (don't forget to trade for gems!), chop Mids and so on.

 

[dankok8]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Yep not sure what I was thinking with the 3rd fogbuster on Ivory. I'll replay the last few turns and post him in Madrid. I figure when Borders pop on Gilga's northern city sometime soon there will be no need for the northern Warrior sitting in the forest either except maybe as a sentry line but that's probably not needed.

Yea cap is very behind. How much did you chop exactly? My efficiency is something that needs a lot of work.

 

[sampsa]

@dankok8

Spoiler :

T63 I have 4 BFC forests, two of them 1T away from chopped. I actually have 3 workers in that area now, but one is going to cottage next. One worker just finished farming southern corn, one is cottaging floodplains.

 

[dankok8]

I didn't get a chance to continue but I didn't abandon this. I will play a bit more tonight.

 

[dankok8]

Played till turn 81 (850 BC)

Spoiler :

Researched AH, Writing, and Math in that order. Replayed a few turns before the last checkpoint and made sure there was a Warrior in Madrid to stop unhappiness. Built a Pasture on the Horses and connected them.

Currently 3 turns from finishing Pyramids. Switching to Rep right away and then gonna chop a Library in Madrid. I'll run Scientists after I grow to the new cap which should be 9 (now 6 and +3 with Rep). Qin had Pigs but I traded Corn to him for Gems. Before I never used to trade an only resource but it's common sense to trade health for happiness early in the game. Signed OB with both neighbours (Gilga got Writing a few turns before me) and Qin after.

Gilga settled a city in the desert so no more need for that northern fogbuster and he's now in Sevilla keeping order. Settler is ready this turn to settle 1E of Corn and I plan to build one more settler in the next bit to get the Crabs north of capital but that doesn't seem so important? Anyways it seems like this will be all of my land until Cuirassiers help me break free.

As of now no one has Alphabet for tech trading. Gilga has 5 cities and Qin 3 cities.

I got some questions.

Spoiler Question #1 :

What should I research next?

Don't need to go for Monarchy, Sailing doesn't seem to be a priority (I can build a road to Gilga?). Maybe Currency? Or Alphabet?

Spoiler Question #2 :

This kind of ties in to the first question but should I research something to defend myself? Right now I can only build Chariots and Warriors.

Spoiler Question #3 :

I kind of know the answer but should I adopt Judaism? Gilga doesn't have it but Qin does and being Spiritual I can always switch out. It spread like 2 turns ago.

Spoiler Question #4 :

To build Cuirassiers I think I need Gunpowder, Music, and Nationalism. Should I beeline Liberalism to get Nationalism or is there a better path? Great Library seems to have a lot of synergy here. Should I build it even though it's kind of off the Liberalism path? Aesthetics does lead to Drama and Music so maybe not bad in terms of tech path.

 

[5tephen]

Definitely convert religion; if there's only 1 religion on your continent and you're spiritual I can't see any harm? Will boost relations increasing chance of keeping the peace.

I'll leave the other questions to more expert players but on the sailing/road question it might depend on the value you place on worker turns. I think it's ~10 worker turns to build an otherwise useless road - will be more useful when you plan war but by that time workers will have finished the essential early improvements.

 

[Qactus]

Spoiler Feedback on last Screenshot (T81) :

Tile improvements
Grassland cottages 1W of Madrid and 1NE of Seville are both inferior to the respectively adjacent tile: Madrid cottage (hamlet by now) obviously because it is not riverside, so it should be 1S. And Seville cottage is riverside, but should be 1N because of overlap with the capital.
While it is true that you will cottage all of these tiles eventually, it is important to always improve the best ones first. Similarly, when you chop forests, start with those on the best tiles, so you can improve them first.
The Madrid plains hill mine should not be there if a riverside green hill is also available.

Tile assignment
Seville is working a desert hill, because the rest of the tiles are assigned to Barcelona. Seville should claim a cottage from Barcelona, which will then switch automatically to the unworked cottage (even if the unworked cottage didn't exist it could still switch to the oasis). That's the power of overlap. Madrid should work the sheep instead of the lake.
This should lead to several turns faster growth in both Seville and Madrid. Unhappiness should be no concern, because a) Pyramids incoming and b) you can whip libraries

 

[dankok8]

@Qactus

Thanks for the reply.

Spoiler :

Re: Madrid cottage

I thought that a tile beside a freshwater lake was like a riverside tile. Didn't realize the cottage 1W of Madrid is suboptimal.

Re: Sevilla

Yes the cottage 1 NE should have been a further 1 N to share with cap. As for Sevilla working a desert hill that must have happened this turn or turn before. It's very hard for me to micro cities every single turn. Sometimes the governor will change tile assignments as well. For example I noticed in other games that whenever I decide to build Wealth the governor stupidly de-emphasizes production. Of course I will re-assign the titles between Barcelona and Sevilla.

Yet another two questions.

Spoiler Question #5 :

One thing that worries me long term in this game is that all of my cities except Madrid have horrendous production. Apart from using whip I don't know how I'll be producing anything even Wealth. Let's say I beeline Cuirassiers and get them super early. How am I gonna make an army of like 30 of them quickly with such horrendous production?

Spoiler Question #6 :

Is there a way to completely turn off the city governor? I hate when it reassigns tiles.

 

[Harv]

Somebody with a screen will show you better. To turn the city governor off, I might click to unselect the tile, then reselect the tile. The drawback is you have to remember to work the iron mine when it is complete.

I think just build production or research is like telling the governor production is not a priority. He probably uses some value system on hammers versus coins.

It would be cool if during the turn you got an executive summary, instead of madrid just built a horse archer, select next build. Here is a list of what got built and what we are building next. Click here to change it or zoom to city.

Here is a list of cities that grew or shrank the number of tiles worked. Madrid grew to size 7. The governor decided that a spy is the best option.

Here is a list of tile improvements.

Currently, my capacity to manage cities might be 6. After that, it is more and more likely I miss things.

Added on Q5:
The combination of slavery and happy cap can help the production problem. So at 1 hammer, an axe is usually a two pop whip. You get the axe next turn and 26 hammers of overflow.