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[BTS] Help me get my first win on Monarch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by jnebbe, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    Hello all, I can beat Prince so now I am trying Monarch. My early game is still unstable and not optimized so I'm looking for some advice on that.

    Balanced map
    Large
    Random civ -> Qin Shi Huang
    No huts, espionage, vassals, or random events

    Here is my start:

    Not a fan of the 2 traits, Protective and Industrious. I see Protective as basically useless until I get to mid/late game. I only see Industrious being particularly helpful if we find stone and/or marble, although maybe it means I could go for Pyramids or Oracle without stone/marble. We'll see.

    However, big fan of starting with Agriculture and Mining, probably the best starting tech combo in the game. I think the plan is to build a worker first and tech BW first, then a warrior while Bejing grows to 2 pop, then chop a settler. After that I'm thinking I'll get Masonry and try for the Pyramids, tons of forest around to chop.

    We start on a plains hill and are surrounded by forests so SIP seems like the obvious choice.

    I don't know how many turns I should play before updating again.

    Attaching T0 save
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Subbed, because I have a monarch game going on. I might have a QSH game from years ago at Monarch. I’m curious what everybody else has to say.

    All those trees and you don’t like Industrious?
     
  3. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Seems pretty straightforward start. SIP, worker, BW, improve corn first.
     
  4. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    T0-12
    Spoiler :

    T0
    Settled in place, sending warrior to scout west


    T12
    Worker finished, BW finishes in 3 turns. Found some stone to the east so I will explore that some more


    @sampsa Why should you improve corn first? Corn is 5 food, wheat is 4 food 1 hammer 1 commerce, I definitely think an extra commerce is more important in early game
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Commerce is not important in the early game. Food is important.
    Food and production!
    The corn is 6F, the wheat is 5F1H1C.

    And even if you think that commerce is more important, if you improve the corn first, your city will grow quicker and be able to work more tiles earlier, thereby yielding more commerce. ;)
     
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  6. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I'm interested in this as well. I ran a quick experiment and found that the city grows in six turns, whatever farm is built first. The difference amounts to:
    2 extra food, or
    2 extra hammers, plus 2 extra beakers

    This is two turns of working 5 food, 1 hammer, 1 commerce versus two turns of working 6 food.

    I did not check to see if the extra two food results in bigger city sizes in later turns.
     
  7. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    T12-15
    Spoiler :



    Alright so I just finished BW and got slavery, and now I'm not sure what the best tech to get would be

    Mysticism - I'll need it in the not so far future for obelisks, or if I want to go for like oracle or temple of artimus with Industrious
    Fishing - Not important right now
    The wheel - Not really important right now but I will definitely need it for pottery; I'm always unsure what the first thing I should build in a new city should be, a granary or obelisk, so I don't know how soon I should get pottery
    Hunting - Good choice(?) I marked a tile for my 2nd or 3rd city, gets a sheep with 3 irrigated grasslands and also gets 3 beavers, going to get a huge research bonus if I can get those + raises happiness cap, I don't know if I should get it now though
    Masonry - Will definitely get this eventually, nearby stone + industrious = guaranteed pyramids? But I don't think it's important now.
    Animal Husbandry - My gut's telling me this is the best option, 2 cows and a sheep nearby and I'll need it if I want to settle near the beavers. Normally this would probably be the next natural tech to get but there's nothing in my borders right now.
    Iron working - Not important unless I know I'm rushing but I haven't even met anyone yet

    I kinda know what I want to do, but I think I do it in the wrong order. I generally know which techs I need and which I won't, but I don't know if it's important what order I get them in this early into the game





     
  8. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I think what matters is if improving corn first reaches the desired size to build a settler 1T faster or not. I'm not sure what that size is yet though. In general, it's very hard to go wrong by always improving the best food resource first!

    Do you mean that you switched into slavery? Often, the best time to switch is when 1st settler is out. I think here it happened to be a good time to switch since with there these tiles you can whip the first settler (probably size 4, though can even consider size 6). Switching now is better than switching just before the whip, because your :food:-resources are not improved.
    I think your scouting with the warrior was a bit ambitious. The most interesting area is always by the river and because your warrior went so far you don't know what else but stone is by the river. If this area was scouted, the next tech choice would be easier.

    One thing. Zoom out with the mouse wheel and pick the trade icon in the bottom right, just over the mini-map. This will show you what tiles are connected to the same trade network with different colors. Is it all same light color or do you see many colors? I'm assuming the latter, since the river is not entirely connected, but it works in mysterious ways sometimes. This matters because if it is connected, you don't need wheel to connect your cities, the river does that for you. For example sheep-fur would be then insta-connected to your capital, giving both cities +1:commerce:trade route.

    Anyway I think your intuition is right, hard to go wrong with AH here, though if your next city is sheep-fur, I'd rather go hunting-AH.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  9. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    I think NE of the green cows is the best city spot we see, at the moment. Somewhere around copper/plains cows is the second best spot. Those spots have 0 commerce and require Wheel + AH.
    Scouting west at least revealed a lack of AIs (Large map : this is to be expected). Your warrior really needs to go SE, now.

    Deciding on the tech path is very hard, here.
    AH - likely the food you'll work in city 2, also reveals horses
    The Wheel - is needed for Pottery and trade route connexions
    Hunting - pre-requisite on AH ; there might be barbarians west (so archers somewhat useful) ; furs will be nice (later on, more for happiness than commerce ; cottages from Pottery would be better for commerce)

    The trouble with hunting is the delay towards The Wheel.
    For your second city, you really want AH and The Wheel. Then you'll likely want Pottery to get some commerce (very standard, no wonder play ; with strong commerce specials, it would be easier to go down the mysticism line - but settling cities should be your main objective at this point, not building the Pyramids - hence scouting SE, too, you really want to know what city spots are available to you). So, I think I'd skip Hunting and ignore the furs until the happiness is relevant.
    And probably would research The Wheel before Animal Husbandry (this is 50/50 for me), so as to road ahead and save on travel time.

    I kinda want to get The Wheel first and a second worker before settler. With 0 commerce in the capital, getting the trade routes is nice. 2nd worker prevents a downtime in Beijing.
    Beijing really wants chop, chop, chop.

    If you decide on your tech (AH vs The Wheel), you can safely grow to size 2 and scout SE a little more.
     
  10. jnebbe

    jnebbe Chieftain

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    T15-29
    Spoiler :

    My warrior was on the west side of my borders on T0, so I just scouted west since that was closer, am bringing him back SE, there's a couple barb animals around there so I have to be careful
    Getting AH now


    T17

    Going to move warrior NE to dodge the bear, if it attacks me I have like 60% chance of surviving and I don't want to risk that. That reveals Brennus' borders which are a little close to mine.
    Bejing finishes warrior and grows to 2 pop in 2 turns, started farming wheat


    So there is a bear and a lion here, and another lion over by the desert, going to stay near Brennus' borders to try to avoid
    Warrior finished in Bejing, sending him E

    Starting a 2nd warrior in Bejing, finishes in 5 turns while it grows to 3 pop in 4 turns, then worker -> settler?

    Met Hannibal who is likely north of Brennus, keeping my 1st warrior around his borders to try to worker steal


    T27

    2nd worker finished
    Bejing grows to 4 pop in 2 turns, will start a settler then so I can whip 2 pop
    Will start chopping next turn

    Explored around the stone, settling on the stone is not a bad spot, and then I could build another city like 1S of deer in midgame? Or I could do 2S of stone and get both food but it will be a while before I can build an obelisk there. I could do 1SW of stone and share the corn, but I'll already be sharing farmland with the beaver city (sidenote I want to get that city early either 2nd or 3rd, going to be very slow to build markets in that city but that isn't needed since I'll get an immediate payoff this early in the game)

    Expanding in early game is definitely a weak point for me, I always spread my cities out too much, expand too slow, and have questionable placement -> lots of resources in BFC but none in the small square



    I played another 2 turns, and finishing AH revealed horses in my borders which could be shared with the beaver city. It did use up a freshwater grassland but that's not a huge deal.
    Really liking that spot as a 2nd city now, and those horses will make it a bit easier to build markets there

    Bejing grows to 4, settler will take 7 turns and forest will be chopped in 2 turns

    Will probably research the wheel, hunting, or masonry, depending on where my first city will be

     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Never build two workers before a settler. That 2nd city asap is very very important. Not sure what the point of these games are if you plan to just play, make a bunch of mistakes, write a report, and ignore what everyone says. This with all love.
     
  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    It's minor and mostly interesting for veterans (cos improve the best food first = good advice),
    but here wheat first is actually slightly better. Since both tiles are worked at size 2, wheat beats not-river corn by 1 yield until size 2.
     
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  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Guidelines tend to do that. Result in suboptimal results from time to time. It's because they are generally correct that they make good guidelines though.
     
  14. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    And hmmm, 2 workers are not a bad idea either imo..
    no clear and strong 2nd city spot, but tons of forests. Can make an argument for 2 choppers / improvers.
     
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  15. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    May I ask what you mean? The difference I got was 2 food on one side and 2 hammers, plus 2 commerce on the other. This is based on the two turns growing from 1 to two. At size 2, the yields are equalized and then the other farm is complete. So then the question is if the two extra food is better or the two extra hammers.
     
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  16. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Yup my bad, i just looked at same food amount at size 2.
    So i guess wheat is not better but about equal.
     
  17. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Eh, it depends on if corn leads to 1T faster settler or not, like I already said.

    Are you suggesting that if we start looking at the numbers it could somehow compete with settling say fur/sheep asap?
     
  18. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    2 workers before a settler is not something new, back then we had players like Dirk who used that often.
    I also do sometimes.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I go for two workers before first settler sometimes too, or not that seldom really. 10% of games perhaps...?

    Some theory....
    Settler is 100 hammer/food to start yielding at best 3F2H3C (settling on a PH, insta-connected working a floodplain.)
    Then it's 8% interest on that investment.

    If we settle in a location that is not connected, not on a PH and working say a grassland forest we get 2F2H1C, then it's 5% yield on our 100H investment.

    A worker that has infinite forest to chop is yielding 5H/turn chopping non-stop, and cost 60H.
    Thats 8.3% yield.

    Ofcourse, if we discount commerce (which I think one should in these early game examples) the chopping worker wins out more.
    Another thing about the worker is that it's cheaper, so the first hammers you start to put into the build is lying dormant for a shorter duration of time before it comes alive and starts yielding.
     
  20. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    That's not what I asked though.
     

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