Help me learn how to play!

[tmarcl]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this. If not, would a mod please move it?

As I've mentioned in other threads, I'm primarily a casual player. I usually play on Settler level so that I can play a slow builder game without the AI ganging up on me and getting to Alpha Centauri before I've built my first settler. Lately, however, I've been trying at Noble. Predictably, I'm getting my heinie handed to me on a regular basis. I'd like to stop that from happening, as the boot marks on my pants are getting harder to wash out.

To that end, I'd like some help. I'm going to start a game, and similar to a story game, play a few turns and post some pictures. What I'm looking for is this: At the end of a set amount of turns, I will post what I did, and would appreciate tips on what I should have done better. After about (say) six or seven tips, I'll play some more, and so on and so on until the game is over. At the start of the game, I will post the starting location, and ask if people can give some input on how the location looks, what it would be good for, etc.

Another thing I'd like some input on is where people at the same point in time if they were playing my game. For instance, if it's turn two, and you would have already built three cities and founded two religions, please tell me.

I'm hesitant to ask for strategies for future turns, because I don't want this to be "play my game for me". However, since strategy is important, advice would be appreciated. Especially what sort of victory you'd plan for based on what leader I have, what resources, etc.

All are welcome to jump in with advice, even questions. I thank you in advance for your help.

I'll post the settings in the second post, and the starting screenshot in post three.

Marc

 

[tmarcl]

Settings:

Civilzation: France
Leader: DeGaulle (I want the easier Wonder production and promotion)
World Size: Large
Opponents: 6 (I like being able to spread out a bit)
Custom Continents-chose 4. Balanced resources.
Tropical Climate
Low Sea Level
All Victory Conditions Enabled
Permanent Alliances Enabled
Normal Game Speed
Normal Barbarians

 

[tmarcl]

Here is my starting city. This is a surprising start for me. I've never been placed by a coastline and a river before on the first try. And three food resources in the BFC?? I give you my word, this is not from the World Builder. The game actually generated this on it's own. From the major forests, my initial instinct is to go for Mysticism for Stonehenge, then research Mining and Bronze Working. While that's being done, I would build two more warriors and a worker.

Given the food resources and the grassland tiles underneath, I'm thinking this would be a Great Person Producer? Stonehenge would let me get some great prophets, and a chance at founding either Judaism or Confucianism. I know that since I'm not starting with Mysticism I'm not going to get either Buddhism or Hinduism.

Marc

 

[nwadams]

well i'm gonna say settle in place, that is an awesome start

 

[v8_mark]

Hi tmarcl, welcome to Civ4!

Couple of things to point out with your early analysis:

Stonehenge? I don't really see a reason to go for Stonehenge in this scenario. Wonders generally are a gambit - what you gain in the long term (in terms of their benefit) you lose in terms of what else you could have produced in the short term. You don't have any production in your BFC, only food - so getting it will also be time-consuming, and from a research perspective the turns spent on Mysticism could be used for another tech that will be more immediately useful.

What I would be thinking about with that start is all that wood. Your starting techs are not the most helpful, I must admit, but the first thing you absolutely must do (especially as you start with Agriculture) is get some food going. First build would be a worker, to farm the corn, without question - another warrior only serves to delay the time it takes to get your city productive.

I know you've said you don't want much pre-emptive advice, but I'll just say that the most important thing in the first 20 turns or so is that you find a way to get your resources in the big fat cross to their maximum production.

It's certainly looking like a good start, though. Best of luck with it!

 

[KMadCandy]

Settings:

World Size: Large
Opponents: 6 (I like being able to spread out a bit)
Custom Continents

did you pick a certain number of continents?

i think i see crabs or clams in that screenshot, but no mention of researching fishing (don't think you start with it) or building workboats. BW is great but seafood is tasty and comes with 2 commerce, so you'll want them sometime soonish. but, i do know the lure of stonehenge, probably more so since you're playing industrious (i almost never do). good luck and have fun!

 

[I EAT CRAYONS]

I think Stonehenge will be a worthwhile goal here. Not only will it give +1 culture in all your cities, the happy cap will get a much-needed boost right from the beginning (monuments give +1 happiness with Charismatic).
Edit: I forgot to mention the Industrious trait making it easier to build.

 

[v8_mark]

Stonehenge - I just personally wouldn't, because there's no production in the capital. Possibly if there's a specific reason I wanted the border pops above more cities/workers (not much land, a need to REX) I might consider chopping it.

And KMadCandy is right, fishing is *absolutely* the first tech you must research.

 

[tmarcl]

did you pick a certain number of continents?

KMadCandy, thank you so much for joining this. After hearing how you make the AI play nicely, and given my experience with how mean they are to me I am glad to have you here! I chose 4 continents. My hope is that this will spread out my rivals enough to keep from being rolled over too quickly, as well as give me a chance for settling on another continent.

i think i see crabs or clams in that screenshot, but no mention of researching fishing (don't think you start with it) or building workboats. BW is great but seafood is tasty and comes with 2 commerce, so you'll want them sometime soonish. but, i do know the lure of stonehenge, probably more so since you're playing industrious (i almost never do). good luck and have fun!

Based on what you and others have said, I am agreeing with going after fishing first.

 

[tmarcl]

Okay, I've played the first 20 turns. If I recall correctly, Succession Games usually go for 20 turns each until AD, then drop to 10, so that's what I'll be doing for now. I'm also going to start adding the save game as well as screen shots in case there's more information you want that you can't get from the picture. My only disappointment so far is that there is no wine in sight for my Frenchpeople.

Turn 1 Settled Paris. Tribal village produced 54 g Started on Worker which will take 15 turns Started on Fishing-6 turns Sent my Warrior (renamed to Dora. Yes, Dora. Girls can be Warriors, too. Just ignore the fact that she's topless. And apparently on steroids.) to start exploring.

I started with Fishing based on what KMadCandy said about the clams.

Turns 2-4 Nada. Dora is exploring.

Turn 5 (I think. I actually wasn't paying attention to this. However, based on 2 culture per turn, it should have been this turn) Paris expands it's borders. There are a total of three hills in the BFC, as well as Pigs. There are also Sheep to the south. AH will have to be something I go for soon as well.

Turn 6 Discovered Fishing. Started on Mining.

Turns 7 & 8 Diddly squat. Dora has discovered Gold to the east.

Turn 9 Dora shakes down a group of villagers and is given the secret of Pottery in exchange for her leaving. Dora has proven very useful so far. I hope she survives.

Turn 10 Someone has founded Buddhism.

Turns 11 & 12 Nothing

Turn 13 Learned Mining. AH is only 12 turns while BW is only 14. I've decided to go with BW for the following reasons: a) There are a lot of forests surrounding me, which will give me at least some hammers. I've got Barbarians roaming around here somewhere, and I'm going to want the Great Wall. In my Settler games, I try to get this, because I don't like having to deal with Barbarians in my borders. My delusion is that they'll go bug the neighbors instead. b) There are three hills in my immediate radius, as well as three more in the next cultural expansion, or when I found city two. The hills in my radius, as well as the one immediately to the east have trees on them. c) I'm hoping that I have Copper either in my immediate borders or very close. If I do, I can crank out a couple of Axemen for when I discover other Civs.

Turn 14 Dora beats up a Panther, amazingly taking no damage herself.

Turn 15 Worker (Bob) built. (In case you're wondering, I have a small child at home. Dora is in fact named after Dora the Explorer, and Bob after Bob the Builder. Bob will build a farm on the Corn, while Paris starts work on a Work Boat for the clams. The Work Boat will take 30 turns!! Hopefully, after the city grows, I can MM onto a hill and shorten that time considerably.

Turn 16 & 17 Nothing happens.

Turn 18 Someone founds Hinduism.

Turn 19 Nada

Turn 20 Bob finishes the Farm and starts on a Road (5 turns). All of a sudden, I see that I missed a Tribal Village just to the south of me. I should have noticed that when the borders expanded, and sent Dora to it.

The next post will have the screen shot, save game, and my analysis and plans. I'll also be responding to each of the points you made earlier, probably with lots of questions.

Marc

 

[pawelo]

Hey tmarc!

I am sure you will have a great game
As for me, this start place calls for chopping and whipping ( and Great Peopleing afterwards ).
Therefore, I would research BW asap and start a worker in the city. Once the worker is up, he should farm the corn.
I don't want this to be too much directive - just giving my opinion

I wouldn't start Stonehenge right now - on Noble no AI will achieve it before 2000 BC so don't worry. You can chop it later

One thing though, check how many turns it takes your worker to get built. If you can, try to research Fishing and BW while your worker is being built, to work the seafood tile whenever possible.

EDITED :
Posted my stuff too late

Hey, anyway, good game start with our two early game heroes

 

[tmarcl]

Okay, here's the screenshot and the save. My initial plan is after the Work Boat (who will not receive a cute name, due to it's short lifespan), to build a couple of Warriors for defense, and then a Settler. If I go for Masonry after BW, I can try for the Great Wall or Pyramids. My wish would be the Great Wall, to avoid Barbarian invaders.

I've put a Pink Dot where I want to settle my next city. It's just past the Gold hills, and right next to the river. Yes, I know I can settle as close as four squares away. However, the river gives me the added health, and if I settle on top of the gold, I'll get the bonus for mining as well as the happiness. Also, there will be three hills in it's radius.

Alternately, I can go down to the Blue Dot. It's right next to the coast, would grab me the sheep, as well as give me three hills instantly, and a fourth after border expansion. Possibly a production city?

In retrospect, I shouldn't have sent Dora so far north, and I should have noticed that other Tribal Village a lot sooner.

Marc

 

[tmarcl]

well i'm gonna say settle in place, that is an awesome start

Welcome, Nw! You're telling me! I almost peed myself. I've never gotten this good a start, ever, even on Settler. To even get this close, I'd have to regenerate the map a few times.

Marc

 

[tmarcl]

Hi tmarcl, welcome to Civ4!

Couple of things to point out with your early analysis:

Stonehenge? I don't really see a reason to go for Stonehenge in this scenario. Wonders generally are a gambit - what you gain in the long term (in terms of their benefit) you lose in terms of what else you could have produced in the short term. You don't have any production in your BFC, only food - so getting it will also be time-consuming, and from a research perspective the turns spent on Mysticism could be used for another tech that will be more immediately useful.

What I would be thinking about with that start is all that wood. Your starting techs are not the most helpful, I must admit, but the first thing you absolutely must do (especially as you start with Agriculture) is get some food going. First build would be a worker, to farm the corn, without question - another warrior only serves to delay the time it takes to get your city productive.

I know you've said you don't want much pre-emptive advice, but I'll just say that the most important thing in the first 20 turns or so is that you find a way to get your resources in the big fat cross to their maximum production.

It's certainly looking like a good start, though. Best of luck with it!

V8, welcome aboard! I do see what you're saying. I was hoping for the +1 happiness I get with Charasmatic and Monuments so I could get to a size 8 before having to stop growing, especially since I didn't get either of the first two religions. Of course, it would probably be quicker to just build the Monument itself later on.

Marc

 

[pawelo]

Okay, here's the screenshot and the save. My initial plan is after the Work Boat (who will not receive a cute name, due to it's short lifespan), to build a couple of Warriors for defense, and then a Settler. If I go for Masonry after BW, I can try for the Great Wall or Pyramids. My wish would be the Great Wall, to avoid Barbarian invaders.

You may consider chopping one forest to get your WB pretty fast. As BW isn't up yet, I would road from Paris to the north, connecting sheeps for later use. Your 7 BW research turns will be over once you finished roads - I would chop the forest on the hill next to the sheep.
If you wish to get GW, Stonehenge and Pyramids ( and you are on a pretty great start to get the three of them ), I would consider the spot to the north, next to the stone ressource. You would also have great floodplains for further development.

I've put a Pink Dot where I want to settle my next city. It's just past the Gold hills, and right next to the river. Yes, I know I can settle as close as four squares away. However, the river gives me the added health, and if I settle on top of the gold, I'll get the bonus for mining as well as the happiness. Also, there will be three hills in it's radius.

This gold spot is great, however I would move the dot 1S so that you can work the sheep tile earlier. Though, not having seen all the city radius, it's difficult to judge.

Alternately, I can go down to the Blue Dot. It's right next to the coast, would grab me the sheep, as well as give me three hills instantly, and a fourth after border expansion. Possibly a production city?

Great idea for further production.

Good luc tmarcl !

 

[tmarcl]

I think Stonehenge will be a worthwhile goal here. Not only will it give +1 culture in all your cities, the happy cap will get a much-needed boost right from the beginning (monuments give +1 happiness with Charismatic).
Edit: I forgot to mention the Industrious trait making it easier to build.

I Eat, hi and welcome! (After these initial welcomes, I'm going to probably respond to everyone in one or two posts, to keep the thread from getting too long and unreadable. I did want to say hi to each of you individually, though).

That was my thinking as well. I wasn't concerned so much about the culture (though that is a good benefit) as the happiness and the GP points for Great Prophet. With the Great Prophets, I might have a chance of getting Monotheism or Code of Laws before anyone else. However, after reading what V8 and Kmad had to say, I can see their points.

Marc

 

[tmarcl]

Hey tmarcl!

Pawelo, thank you for joining! As you can see, you're not too late to comment, and you seem to have already posted on my comments for the first few turns.

I am sure you will have a great game
As for me, this start place calls for chopping and whipping ( and Great Peopleing afterwards ).
Therefore, I would research BW asap and start a worker in the city. Once the worker is up, he should farm the corn.
I don't want this to be too much directive - just giving my opinion

I've never liked Whipping, but that might be a good plan. The AI is a faster builder than I am to begin with, so I'm going to need all the help I can get!

I wouldn't start Stonehenge right now - on Noble no AI will achieve it before 2000 BC so don't worry. You can chop it later

One thing though, check how many turns it takes your worker to get built. If you can, try to research Fishing and BW while your worker is being built, to work the seafood tile whenever possible.

Yeesh. I hate being patient when it comes to the first wonder, but you guys all do know more than I do, so I will take your advice and wait.

Marc

 

[v8_mark]

The Pyramids.

Just something to consider.

Reasons in favour:
- I see stone on the northern edge of the screenshot
- You have large amount of food, meaning you can run Representation scientists in most cities (for +6 each)
- You're Industrious (having advised against Stonehenge )
- Representation will give you +3 happiness, meaning you can probably get your capital close to double-figure size, even without religion.
- In any case, you're practically guaranteed a later religion (probably Code of Laws) if you can get scientists up and running under Rep.

It should be doable easily if you can hook the stone up and chop away. I'd check out that site. Doing the maths (this is on Normal speed, but the same hammer and turn numbers should all be 50% bigger for Epic):

2 workers, 3 chops each = 6 chops for 120 hammers, which is doubled for stone (240) then increased by 50% again for Industrious (300). So you need to find 80 hammers (increased by 150% to 200) from normal production over the 9 turns it will take to chop those 6 forests.

So 9 turns at Normal = 14-15 turns on Epic?

No need to panic-rush it to the detriment of all else though, you've got all the time in the world. The Noble AI is unlikely to complete the Pyramids in the BC years.

I agree with pawelo on the site of the second city - being able to work the sheep and the gold from the get-go will give your early research a big boost. The city site to the south looks good for a production city as well - assuming there are at least some averagely good food tiles elsewhere in that BFC.

Best of luck

 

[xanadux]

This is quite a good start, with a high food capital, and at least 1 excellent secondary city. Here are a few ideas of what you want to accomplish in the early game for a solid start:

- Develop your capital as quickly as possible. You want to work as many improved squares as possible as quickly as possible. Growing your city to work an extra tile does not help much if that tile is not improved. Unimproved tiles add only 1 extra food or hammer because it takes 2 food to feed the new citizen. An improved tile means 2 or 3 times the output of an unimproved tile. This is why growing your capital at turn 1 is not as good as getting a worker out.

- Get a second productive city going as soon as possible. A third or fourth city may or may not come immediately thereafter, but getting a second productive city quickly is very important.

- Secure a strategic resource for better military units. Teching archery is usually a waste. But you need better than warriors for barbarians. Generally this means teching BW, and if there is no copper near, then AH. If there are also no horses, then Iron Working.

Some ways to accomplish the above:

-Growing your capital and getting a second city out cannot both happen at once. Settlers are expensive and you don't grow while building them. The solution to accomplishing these two goals quickly is chopping wood. Usually the quickest way to get a second city out and get on to growing your capital is to get Bronze Working first while building a worker, chop forest to complete worker, then have both workers chop forests for a settler. This is a good idea if you have a nice spot for a second city. This gets the settler out very quickly, and gets your capital growing very soon with 2 workers to improve tiles.

- If neither your second city or capital have a strategic resource, you will need to get a third city very soon for a resource, or build the Great Wall.

Some thoughts on this start:

Your pink dot will be a fine city. The blue dot should not be considered until you scout more down there. I would suggest getting 2 more cities rather quickly. One at the pink dot (I would probably make this the 3rd city), and one 2E and 1S of the stone on the river bend. This stone city should look very good to you. The stone will be very useful as you are industrious, and building the great wall and pyramids should be early goals after getting a couple cities out. The flood plains will provide growth and production via the whip.

- My plan would be: Get city 2 up with highest priority. Research mysticism and chop a monument there to pop borders for stone. While waiting for borders to pop and hooking up stone, build work boats in capital and grow capital. Build a third worker in city 2 while working an irrigated flood plain (you should already have 2 workers). Once stone is hooked up, send workers back to capital to chop and mine the two forested hills. Have city 2 grow to size 4, whip a granary, grow again, whip a settler, grow again, whip a library, grow again, run 2 scientists. With 2 scientists in city 2, and working the gold in city 3, you should easily be able to wait til math to chop the pyramids. Remember that math gives you +50% production on chopping wood. You will need a lot of workers. 3 minimum, better 4 by the time 3rd city is up.

- Wonders are fine to build if you are industrious, especially with that stone. Just make sure you get your second city going first ... then you can keep expanding while building those wonders. That second city will be a huge production boost early on ... it can work 4 irrigated flood plains, and you should whip often. Try to whip for 2 population at a time, as the unhappiness is the same no matter how much population is whipped. Ideally you want to whip this city when it is size 5 or 6 for 2 population ... then it can make good use of all those flood plains.

 

[I EAT CRAYONS]

I agree that Stonehenge would definitely be pushing it with that start. It would be pretty helpful though.
The Pyramids, however, are definitely viable--but there isn't much of a point without an SE. I would consider going after the Parthenon as well, as the AI delays it considerably.
I don't play with the Industrius trait that often so I don't know how much of a help it will be, but I can usually beat the AI to those two wonders on Noble with some chopping.