[BTS] Help me master the basics, learn the intermediate and begin to understand the expert

[Lazarus_Cato]

Hey guys, it's been recommended by a number of you that I run a forum game to learn the basics... so here it is.

The only thing about playing this game with me is you will need BAT 4.1. Which I think could be an issue for some as I think most people only run BUG/BULL - I tried to make it easy for everyone and basically I installed BUG fine, but when I tried to install BULL with it I came into issues - I followed the instructions (I think) and I get an error when loading up a game...

Spoiler screen shot :

and after closing that I don't have a UI. All the files I've changed I don't feel confident to change back, but BAT still seems to work fine... So hopefully that works with you guys... if it doesn't I don't know what to do...

So, I chose Tokugawa again as there seems to be some consensus that he is a good generic leader (perfect for learning the game). It's a pangea map, no huts, no events, Monarch difficulty. (Is there anything else I need to say?) - I regenerated the map a few times because I didn't want an over-powered start.

Here it is...


My initial thoughts:
Not sure whether to move warrior 1N or 1E and see what that reveals.
Settle in place, ag for sure and worker first

 

[Gwaja]

Woot! Everyone's favorite leader... Toku! J/K.

Howdy and wish you all the luck with the game. This is really the most efficient way to learn the game. I know I did it this way and it was a tremendous help from the awesome community here at CFC. ^_^

Thoughts:

You have plenty of food, both of the sources wet, so even better. Surprisingly, cottaging may be delayed due to forests, and I see brown tiles in all directions.
Ming and Bronze Working after Agriculture, it seems for now?

I reckon you'd want to stay riverside to keep fresh water bonus, so I'd move the warrior north or west, but not east or south.

I have a feeling one of those brown tiles have got to have strategic resource of some kind!

Oh... and please, if you can, share the starting save for us! ^_^

 

[DrCron]

I reckon you'd want to stay riverside to keep fresh water bonus, so I'd move the warrior north or west, but not east or south

Settling 1S seems to be touching yet another river (though it probably won't be worth losing a turn). It looks like E there's a coast? I don't normally play with BAT so I'm not sure. Anyway, I'd probably just move warrior 1N and SIP.

I'll see if I have BAT installed (I think I do) and maybe I'll shadow you after you start.

EDIT: nope, I only have BUFFY.

 

[lymond]

G'day Mate!

Looks like a nice reasonable start for you. I don't see anything glaring here that calls for moving the settler, but maybe the warrior move will make cause for reconsideration. SIP would probably be fine, but I would move the warrior 1NW, as I want to see what is in those open tiles to the W and if there is more river. We can see that it looks quite brown to the E so no real need to see that. In general, you only really want to consider moving your settler if there is something to gain from it, i.e., better city center tile for bonus, more rivers, more food (ofc).

Based on what I see right now, I'd say the old AG>BW path is certainly a good way to start here, probably followed by POT since Toku does start with the TW and Fishing.

So I would do the warrior move and then post again so we can make a settling decision.

Couple of notes on Monarch level:

1) AIs start with archers
2) AIs get a bit more bonuses than Prince. Noble is neutral, and below Noble the human gets the bonuses
3) So you will notice the AIs will tech a bit faster now, and be slightly more aggressive, but not be concerned with that. This is all about learning the early game and with guidance you will be fine
4) Oh..and barbs will be slightly more of a pain, but usually aren't a huge problem on Pangaea maps since there is less open space and closer proximity to AIs. With good spawnbusting you will be fine.

Dr. Cron - install BAT and enjoy

 

[DrCron]

Dr. Cron - install BAT and enjoy

I'm pretty sure BUFFY includes BAT. Anyway, as a regular rule I prefer just playing with BULL, so everyone can open my files and the screen shots look normal.

 

[Pangaea]

BUFFY doesn't include BAT, and thank goodness for that. I much prefer the look of the original game (sorry guys, but I simply do). Always move the warrior/scout before settling, just in case he reveals something good. Do that here too, but right now I don't see a good reason to move away and also lose a turn.

 

[lymond]

I'm pretty sure BUFFY includes BAT. Anyway, as a regular rule I prefer just playing with BULL, so everyone can open my files and the screen shots look normal.

BUFFY is not BAT. They both have BUG and BULL, but BUFFY is outdated (i've been pushing via HOF to get it updated for years, and it is in process, but we've encountered issues in testing). BAT also includes graphical enhancements and all the BULL options are setup already.

Unless you have space issues, there is no harm in having BAT installed. It is standalone so you can just use it like in cases of this game, or just try it. Also, it does not conflict with BUG/BULL in custom assets, so you don't have to change that if you run BAT.

original game = blech

 

[DrCron]

I much prefer the look of the original game

Me too, though it's probably just because I'm used to it so I recognize terrain features faster.

BUFFY is not BAT. They both have BUG and BULL, but BUFFY is outdated

Ah, I see, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

You have plenty of food, both of the sources wet, so even better. Surprisingly, cottaging may be delayed due to forests, and I see brown tiles in all directions.
Ming and Bronze Working after Agriculture, it seems for now?

I agree.

I reckon you'd want to stay riverside to keep fresh water bonus, so I'd move the warrior north or west, but not east or south.

maybe the warrior move will make cause for reconsideration. SIP would probably be fine, but I would move the warrior 1NW, as I want to see what is in those open tiles to the W and if there is more river.

N or W or NW... I experimented with all 3 to try and understand the thought process behind each. And I think 1NW was best, because it opens up the option of both hills (1W/1NE).



And based on that I would say sip, worker, ag, next turn, warrior 1NE to scope out if there is more than 2 flood plains...

I have a feeling one of those brown tiles have got to have strategic resource of some kind!

Why do you say that? Are there rules governing the map generation or is it an intuition kind of thing or both?

G'day Mate!

G'day!!

 

[pigswill]

A standard opening would be ag>min>BH. Build worker then warriors to pop4, start settler and doublewhip (i.e. one 2 pop whip) once you've got BW and 40h in settler. Improve corn, rice, 2 ghill mines.
One of the most important rules in Civ is of course: Play the Map.

 

[lymond]

lol

hmm..SIP would be fine here, but I'm kinda interested in 1NW (of settler). It's not a huge gain but the flood plain makes the site more Bureau cap worthy, and it clearly seems you are not losing much when seeing brown tiles in the fog. I mean,who knows, maybe there is a dry wheat or something, but you have sufficient food for the city right now. You do lose 1t but that's not significant. Settler moves are quite common. The thing is that one gains something out of it.

(note: in the normal game options, you can turn on "single unit graphics" - you might prefer it. Also, you can turn on quick movement and quick combat. Since you are new to the game the novelty of it all may still grab you, but it will wear off)

Oh..and note on scouting. Good rule of thumb is to scout apprx. a 10 tile radius around your cap - barring hitting coast sooner in some direction. On Pangaea, I might decrease that a bit. Once that perimeter is sufficiently scouted, that warrior should find a good spawnbust position - likely near future city site (remember 5X5). Subsequent warrior builds should also move out to spawnbust positions. If my cap is producing those warriors faster for whatever reason, or I'm more concerned about the immediate barb situation (higher levels, different maps), I might shorten the initial warrior/scouts mission and put him into a spawnbust position sooner, letting the new warriors scout the other areas of the perimeter.

 

[Powerfaker]

Interesting starting location.
SIP is solid. Besides the food 11 riverside tiles (tile 1SW borders river W en S right?) and 2 green hills to aid hammers. So up to at least size 15 all good tiles to work (assuming river cottages). Therefore not really a need to move. Other cities you found need strong tiles too. To try collect more in your cap could be overdoing it.

Compliments on moving the warrior 1NW and not to the hill 1E which would give wider view but most likely not be helpful for cap settling decision. I think the PH it revealed is a potential spot for another city => 2h city tile + riverside + flood plains + shared corn with cap are all favourable.
And now I would not SIP but move settler 1S for proper space between cities and probably gain some more riverside after all. (and who knows what more).

My 2 cents as Imm player. I don't use BAT so I didn't open the save. Not sure about river SW as mentioned, so maybe some of my comments is nonsens.

 

[diegobueno]

man why you do dis to me?... toku!! D,=
now i have to play the game

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

A standard opening would be ag>min>BW. Build worker then warriors to pop4, start settler and doublewhip (i.e. one 2 pop whip) once you've got BW and 40h in settler. Improve corn, rice, 2 ghill mines.
One of the most important rules in Civ is of course: Play the Map.

So, I've just some of this as an experiment. I end up with 1 warrior and 4 into another one at size 4... I just searched what the decay is for units and it starts at 10 turns, 2% of invested hammers per turn (rounded up)... Would it be better to put that 4 into a barracks or finish the second warrior? Or would you finish the settler and get back to the 2nd warrior before this? Would that be a typical build order? Worker, Warrior, Settler, Warrior?

hmm..SIP would be fine here, but I'm kinda interested in 1NW (of settler). It's not a huge gain but the flood plain makes the site more Bureau cap worthy, and it clearly seems you are not losing much when seeing brown tiles in the fog. I mean,who knows, maybe there is a dry wheat or something, but you have sufficient food for the city right now. You do lose 1t but that's not significant. Settler moves are quite common. The thing is that one gains something out of it.

Interesting starting location.
SIP is solid. Besides the food 11 riverside tiles (tile 1SW borders river W en S right?) and 2 green hills to aid hammers. So up to at least size 15 all good tiles to work (assuming river cottages). Therefore not really a need to move. Other cities you found need strong tiles too. To try collect more in your cap could be overdoing it.

Compliments on moving the warrior 1NW and not to the hill 1E which would give wider view but most likely not be helpful for cap settling decision. I think the PH it revealed is a potential spot for another city => 2h city tile + riverside + flood plains + shared corn with cap are all favourable.
And now I would not SIP but move settler 1S for proper space between cities and probably gain some more riverside after all. (and who knows what more).

Is it helpful to look at base yeilds?

Spoiler SIP: :

wet corn, wet rice, gold, 3GH, 11 riverside tiles (9 cottageable)
base yeilds including removal of forest = 31, 13, 14
with improvements = ?

Spoiler 1NW: :

wet corn, wet rice, plains cow, 3GH, 13 riverside tiles (9 cottageable)
base yeilds including removal of forest = 34, 14, 14
with improvements = ?

Spoiler 1S: :

wet corn, wet rice, gold, 2GH, 1PH, 11 riverside tiles (8 cottageable)
base yeilds including removal of forest = 30, 15, 13
with improvements = ?


If only there was a way to go 1NW and pick up that gold for the short term. I didn't want a gold start, but it looks like I got one anyway... What would you do with this new found information... I'm leaning toward going 1NW to forgo the gold for a second city but I'm curious to know if this is optimal?

(note: in the normal game options, you can turn on "single unit graphics" - you might prefer it. Also, you can turn on quick movement and quick combat. Since you are new to the game the novelty of it all may still grab you, but it will wear off)

Yeah I play with quick movement/combat but I actually like the multiple unit graphic.

man why you do dis to me?... toku!! D,=
now i have to play the game

lol wut?

 

[lymond]

Well, your logic is ok, but technically you would not really have all that information testing out settling locations like that in a normal game. You go by the info you have available and whatever the starting unit reveals with their move. I don't over analyze it, but for starting cap I like good food and river tiles - mainly grass and flood plains. The Gold reveal is certainly nice and in most games if I see that I would not move from it. Based on the moves I described though, personally I would have settled 1NW. I see no reason to consider moving S to settle..there's no info I see (not your actually reveal but even otherwise) that would lead me to that conclusion.

How you settle is important but once you get a feel for it it should not be overly complicated. Keep in mind though that some starting caps simply are not the best setup for bureau caps, and in some cases you just get a crappy start. You learn to make do. In this case you have a fine start no matter the decision.

I'm leaning toward going 1NW to forgo the gold for a second city but I'm curious to know if this is optimal?

Well, your decision seems based more on the idea of learning experience, so "optimal" does not factor into the equation. Do what you want to do. I will say if my warrior was in a position at the start such that my move revealed gold there, I would certainly settle in place.

For learning is fine that you moved the settler all over the place for the purpose of analysis but, of course, in normal games that would constitute replaying turns and would be shunned. I'm just saying that to point out that this analysis is not a reality.

edit: Oh..and I will add that Gold certainly makes for a stronger start..so does Gems. But you are moving up levels here, so I would not be too concerned about the bonus. You will tech faster and have a better early economy, but you will still need to do a lot of things better.

Once you decide on where you want to settle, I would play until the worker pops, while doing the scouting as I prescribed...then post up for advice.

 

[Lazarus_Cato]

Well, your logic is ok, but technically you would not really have all that information testing out settling locations like that in a normal game. You go by the info you have available and whatever the starting unit reveals with their move. I don't over analyze it, but for starting cap I like good food and river tiles - mainly grass and flood plains. The Gold reveal is certainly nice and in most games if I see that I would not move from it. Based on the moves I described though, personally I would have settled 1NW. I see no reason to consider moving S to settle..there's no info I see (not your actually reveal but even otherwise) that would lead me to that conclusion.

How you settle is important but once you get a feel for it it should not be overly complicated. Keep in mind though that some starting caps simply are not the best setup for bureau caps, and in some cases you just get a crappy start. You learn to make do. In this case you have a fine start no matter the decision.

Well, your decision seems based more on the idea of learning experience, so "optimal" does not factor into the equation. Do what you want to do. I will say if my warrior was in a position at the start such that my move revealed gold there, I would certainly settle in place.

For learning is fine that you moved the settler all over the place for the purpose of analysis but, of course, in normal games that would constitute replaying turns and would be shunned. I'm just saying that to point out that this analysis is not a reality.

edit: Oh..and I will add that Gold certainly makes for a stronger start..so does Gems. But you are moving up levels here, so I would not be too concerned about the bonus. You will tech faster and have a better early economy, but you will still need to do a lot of things better.

Once you decide on where you want to settle, I would play until the worker pops, while doing the scouting as I prescribed...then post up for advice.

Yeah, my thinking aligns with all of that... Okay, here we go.

T000 - Warrior 1NW, Settler 1NW
T001 - Warrior 1NE, found Kyoto, start worker - revealed plains cow to the west and ivory to the north, tech ag
T002 - Warrior 1N
T003 - Warrior 1NW
T004 - Warrior 1NW - reveals dry rice and alot of jungle to the north
T005 - Warrior 1W
T006 - Warrior 1SW, borders expand - revealed gold
T007 - Warrior 1SW - revealed a few flood plains and stone
T008 - Warrior 1SW - revealed rice
T009 - Warrior 1SW - meet Lincoln to the west, he has silk
T010 - Ag>mining, warrior 1SE
T011 - Warrior 1SE - revealed gold
T012 - Warrior 1S
T013 - Warrior 1S - revealed wine, and we appear to be on the southern coast
T014 - Warrior 1SE
T015 - Hammurabi comes from the NE of Kyoto, warrior 1SE
T016 - Mining complete, worker complete - Lincoln founds buddhism

Spoiler screenshot :

My thoughts and questions:
Tech BW next, build warrior... Worker to farm wet corn, warrior 1E
What's Lincoln like as an AI - I think I remember AZ saying he wasn't much of a threat, what's he like in the tech race?
Same with Hammy, being agg I'm guessing he might be a bit of a war-mongerer?
Who should I have my spy points on?
Where to from here? I'm guessing I should think about my 2nd city location.

 

[Fippy]

There are situations where delaying AH makes sense, but for learning purpose i would say you cannot go wrong with wanting to improve those cows first before BW. 7 yield tile
Getting such strong tiles early gives a nice foundation for all games.

But more important than which you pick first, will be that you understand what BW first means.
With +9 food after improving both corn and rice, you want to grow size 4 and use slavery for your first settler. Even 1 floodplains as 3rd tile for growing.
Nice learning effect as well.

 

[diegobueno]

nice land to overlap cottages, i dont usually work cottages but this one seems nice.
and at least 3 happy resources, gold wich needs only mining, phants wich needs hunting, and wine wich needs monarchy.
plus 3 healty resources +2 with granary.

and your friend lincoln have silk wich you can take later

 

[Pedro78]

@Lazarus_Cato
Nice writeup . Turn-by-turn writeups are definitely the best way to learn the game.

From where you are I would scout a bit in the South-East looking for food resources. If no food (or dry rice / ground cows), I would settle 3S1E to work the gold and share the rice. Will be a nice helper city to grow cottages as well.

Lincoln is usually not much of a threat. He usually won't attack you unless he's annoyed and is in a dominant position. Plus he is usually easy to take out early as he doesen't build many units.
Hammy is, most of the time, stronger than Lincoln, but still not much of a warmonger. He cannot attack at pleased, and doesen't attack at cautious most of the time. If you share a religion with him, you're almost 100% sure not to get attacked. However, be careful about early rushes against Hammy, as his Bowmen get +50% against Melee units.

 

[Fippy]

Well let me highlight what Lymond wrote several times..
you should not think about AIs currently @LC, they are only distractions for learning what's really important first. If none would be there, that would best ~~