Help me plan a rush vs Sitting Bull

[jerVL/kg]

In a recent thread I discussed how badly I suck at planning for wars, while in other aspects of the game I do pretty good. Well, the situation's reared its ugly head again.

I started on a pretty nice isolated continent, or at least I thought it was isolated. Turns out I've got a neighbor -- Sitting Bull, one of the most annoying AIs in the game. It's too late to reload Turn Zero and delete him via worldbuilder (heh) and I'd rather not reroll this start entirely. So the obvious solution is that SB must die...the question is, how soon?

My inclination is to wait until janissaries or maybe even grenadiers (especially grens that have been upgraded from CR2 macemen, those kick ass) but I realized there's a brief window of time to take him down with just maces & catapults instead, if I can get them in play before he gets to Feudalism. The only problems are, (1) I'm not really sure how to do this efficiently, and (2) switching over to military production basically means giving up on building Wonders, esp. the Great Library and maybe even the AP.

On the other hand, perhaps this could be a learning experience for me, to become comfortable with a semi-early rush without getting sidetracked by Wonder Spam. (Or maybe I could do both...the unknown AIs seem to be very backward, since I landed Buddhism as my 4th researched tech and even built Stonehenge, when I was actually trying for failgold -- lol.)

Anyway, here's the save & some screenies, in case anyone wants to offer advice. Yes, I know the game is on Prince...it's how I roll, deal with it.

Spoiler :

 

[sinimusta]

My inclination is to wait until janissaries or maybe even grenadiers (especially grens that have been upgraded from CR2 macemen, those kick ass) but I realized there's a brief window of time to take him down with just maces & catapults instead, if I can get them in play before he gets to Feudalism. The only problems are, (1) I'm not really sure how to do this efficiently, and (2) switching over to military production basically means giving up on building Wonders, esp. the Great Library and maybe even the AP.

First how are you planning to win? Are you going to AP cheese? Or culture? Killing SB isn't required for these. Why do you hate SB? His espionage? You can also use counter-espionage to deal with that.

However you asked for war advice. First thing here is that you need to learn how to get an army out fast: whip and chop! You have a lot of forests left so use them. Forest tiles aren't worth working. Cats and maces are definitely enough if you learn how to produce them fast enough. Mobilize your nation almost completely to unit prod to kill SB fast. about 50% of your army or more should be siege as siege will suffer the heaviest losses. Actually in this case where SB doesn't have large stacks perhaps little less would be appropriate.

The fighting: promote your troops almost completely to cr and some stack def with combat. SB seems quite weak so counterattacks don't seem to be a problem. Bombard, sacrifice some cats and move in. Should be simple.

 

[pigswill]

You don´t need maces. Cats + anything will do the job before LBs, just bring enough cats.

 

[lymond]

Istanbul makes my eyes bleed

 

[jerVL/kg]

Why do you hate SB? His espionage?

Ayup. Don't fancy having my water supply poisoned every two turns, thanks a bunch. But are you saying there's a way to counter that?

As for victory conditions, I dunno, probably Space. Might be fun to try for a Culture victory, though. AP Cheese ends the game too quickly so that's out. I'm much more into building vast empires than beating the game as fast as possible.

You have a lot of forests left so use them. Forest tiles aren't worth working. Cats and maces are definitely enough if you learn how to produce them fast enough. Mobilize your nation almost completely to unit prod to kill SB fast. about 50% of your army or more should be siege as siege will suffer the heaviest losses.

Knowing how much siege to bring is definitely my weakest point, so I appreciate the 50% ratio suggestion, thx. Whipping is no problem...but forests? IME, forest chopping is best for stuff like settlers, wonders, and early infrastructure (such as work boats) -- chopping units will get you an army faster, yes, but you lose lots of long-term production capacity, not to mention the health bonus which becomes critical in the mid to late game. (Sid's Sushi on an Archipelago map can get really crazy!!!)

The fighting: promote your troops almost completely to cr and some stack def with combat. SB seems quite weak so counterattacks don't seem to be a problem. Bombard, sacrifice some cats and move in. Should be simple.

Sounds like a solid plan.

 

[jerVL/kg]

You don´t need maces. Cats + anything will do the job before LBs, just bring enough cats.

Against dog soldiers??? Last time I attempted a rush on Sitting Bull with only axes, his UU ripped my stack to shreds. Besides, I'm only 18 turns or so away from Machinery, though I'll likely pick up some other techs first (such as Theology.)

Istanbul makes my eyes bleed

How so?

 

[sinimusta]

Knowing how much siege to bring is definitely my weakest point, so I appreciate the 50% ratio suggestion, thx. Whipping is no problem...but forests? IME, forest chopping is best for stuff like settlers, wonders, and early infrastructure (such as work boats) -- chopping units will get you an army faster, yes, but you lose lots of long-term production capacity, not to mention the health bonus which becomes critical in the mid to late game. (Sid's Sushi on an Archipelago map can get really crazy!!!)

You understand why it's good to chop settlers-> you get to settle cities earlier. The same applies to chopping army: you get enemy cities earlier to contribute to your empire so it's in a way similar to chopping settlers. I and probably a lot of other people in these forums think that forests are best uset for chops, health bonuses or "long-term production capacity" don't matter. You're better off by whipping some helth infra if really needed. Farms are better productionwise than forests since to size 10 you get about 2 hammers per 1 food via whip (to size 10 the rate can be rounded to 2, at size 10 the rate is 1.5). So basically grass farm can be thought to produce 6 hammers. Lumbermills come too late to matter and by that time workshops will be a better option. So really forests shouldn't be considered to be part of long-term prod but rather a short-term boost to be used wisely for something that will give you good long-term prod capacity (like more cities).

Oh I thought you had maces available since you were talking about them. I think they're too far away in the tech tree. If you want to kill SB the earlier the better as you get to develop his land. So I think you should attack with swords+cats.

 

[pomthom]

Dude, you gotta chop some stuff once in a while...

I think that's what Lymond is referring to: you're working loads of unimproved tiles because you won't chop'em. Plus you're not benefiting from all the production chopped forests give you. What difficulty level are you playing?

I think war is not the only aspect that you could improve

 

[pigswill]

Str 4 dogs rip axes to shreds, str 1.2 dogs don´t. Bring enough seige.

 

[Ghpstage]

You have city visibility on SB due to the GSpy you got from the Great Wall (really not needed wonder...), you have Horses you just need to hook up, he's backwards, a fair distance away, and you can see that his military is pathetic. Conclusion: Horse Archers!
I would also be swapping your core cities to building infa to help this goal, forges, barracks and stables once unlocked.

Lymonds Istanbul comment is no doubt due to the unimproved tiles being worked,

IME, forest chopping is best for stuff like settlers, wonders, and early infrastructure (such as work boats) -- chopping units will get you an army faster, yes, but you lose lots of long-term production capacity, not to mention the health bonus which becomes critical in the mid to late game. (Sid's Sushi on an Archipelago map can get really crazy!!!)

As has been mentioned already, in the short-mid term forests lose out in production terms to farm (and commerce too for riverside!), and in the later game they lose out to workshops and waterwheels, they also hold an immedate hammer store hammers: now are worth more than later!) and take up room other useful non production improvements could be built.

isn't a big deal, yes Sids can be big on archipelago, but planning to max out Sids at the start is going to make you lose a number of games! Heck even the Hall of Fame guys who specialise in abusing Sushi food to get enormous populations tend to chop just about everything in site!

switching over to military production basically means giving up on building Wonders, esp. the Great Library and maybe even the AP.

Well you are miles ahead and this is only Prince, you will likely be able to build wonders after the war. However I would strongly advise playing some games where you build no wonders at all, this will force you to learn how to use the core economic mechanics and show you how much your actually getting for the hammers you spent (Stonehenge is giving little, GWall was a waste, and the Pyramids was a terrible built as your not using it!).


PS You need more workers too.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Oh I thought you had maces available since you were talking about them. I think they're too far away in the tech tree. If you want to kill SB the earlier the better as you get to develop his land. So I think you should attack with swords+cats.

Hmm...swordsmen? I completely forgot they existed. I never build them!

In any case, I'm still thinking of heading for Machinery soon since it will not only unlock macemen (already took Civil Service from the Oracle) but also crossbows, which will absorb anything SB can possibly throw at me. However I do like the suggestion of getting horse archers first, even though they're vulnerable to spears. In any case, I do think Currency needs to come first, since it will boost all subsequent research -- as a great man once said, "It's the economy, stupid!"

Also, the more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't need to completely exterminate SB right now. The only city I really need to attack is Yayoi, which should be razed & replaced with two cities (one on the desert tile 2W1S, where the "xxcityxx" sign is pointing, and one probably on the desert hill next to the horses). Probably should take Chaco Canyon too, even though it's in a naff location, and also Snaketown (keep or raze?) to deny SB the gold & incense. After that, SB is welcome to sulk in his corner until I'm ready to finish him off with rifles & grenadiers. How's that sound for a plan?

 

[jerVL/kg]

Okay, we seem to have a philosophical disagreement about whether chopping is better than not chopping. Part of it is aesthetics -- I personally think completely denuded landscape looks awful, and forests give a city character. The biggest reason I play Civ4 is to build cities that look cool, and if my reluctance to chop forests means I'll never win a Conquest Victory on Emperor by 550AD, so be it. That's not what I'm here for.

But I flat out disagree that non-hill, non-riverside plains are better without forests. A forested plain tile gives +1+2 -- not spectacular, but almost as good as a grassland mine. Chop the forest and you can build...what? a farm? What for? A plains farm is inherently weak, even on a river. And you can't "improve" farms at all until Biology, which arrives long after lumbermills & railroads. Workshops flat out suck until Guilds+Chemistry, and even then give less yield than a railroaded lumbermill unless you run Caste System and/or State Property. (And FWIW I've already chopped five forests in Istanbul, and Bursa & Konya are about to undergo major chop-fests, so let it not be said that I never chop!!!)

As for wonders -- well, Stonehenge was a fluke as I didn't expect to actually complete it, but it's proven itself useful in the new border cities, esp. Konya which would've lost the horse tile without the free monument. Great Wall is one of the most important builds for an isolated start, although it's usefulness was indeed short-lived on this map...but it did generate an early G.Spy, which allowed me to gain visibility on SB's cities -- very, very crucial for the upcoming war. As for Pyramids, early Representation is always extremely powerful...although I did consider delaying it or even skipping it entirely (until I realized it could be chopped in less than 10 turns) and I will definitely grant that building the 'Mids this early probably did cost me the barbarian city which S.B. captured...but as they say, and what the whole point of this thread is about, "There's very few map problems that a bunch of axemen can't solve."

 

[pomthom]

Okay, we seem to have a philosophical disagreement about whether chopping is better than not chopping. Part of it is aesthetics -- I personally think completely denuded landscape looks awful, and forests give a city character. The biggest reason I play Civ4 is to build cities that look cool, and if my reluctance to chop forests means I'll never win a Conquest Victory on Emperor by 550AD, so be it. That's not what I'm here for.

On a personal note, I respect that entirely. It's just that you'll have to expect that most of the guys around here won't be able to help a lot because salvaging forests and working unimproved tiles is a heresy to them (me included ). However I doubt you'll ever win an Emperor game that way, let alone a 550 AD conquest . But I've been wrong many times before

A forested plain tile gives +1+2 -- not spectacular, but almost as good as a grassland mine. Chop the forest and you can build...what? a farm?

You're right about the fact that there's nothing interesting to improve on a non-riverside plains (pre-biology or pre-chemistry or whatever). What's interesting about chopping a plains forest is purely for the 30 production. Most of the time I don't care about losing the +1 +2 yield of the forested plains because I'd probably never work it in the first place

 

[CivNoobie]

don't be a tree hugger, there are plenty other planets in other solar systems for us to destroy.

 

[Ghpstage]

However I do like the suggestion of getting horse archers first, even though they're vulnerable to spears.

Try not to overthink the vulnarability to Spears as it doesn't stop people making heavy use of pure HA rushes even on Deity, where the AI does actually build some and Axes are rarely used.

A plains farm is inherently weak, even on a river.

Well your part of the way there! But i'll fix it

A plains tile is inherently weak!

A forest doesn't add any value to it early either.

Great Wall is one of the most important builds for an isolated start, although it's usefulness was indeed short-lived on this map...but it did generate an early G.Spy, which allowed me to gain visibility on SB's cities -- very, very crucial for the upcoming war.

Its not important in any way shape or form unless you have huge amounts of empty land surrounding you. even if SB wasn't there you would only have had to worry about defending one side with Axes. The early GSpy was actually a bad thing to get, you could easily have scoped out SBs cities using your Open Borders agreement. The only useful aspects to GSpies outside of espionage heavy set ups are to give golden ages, and its too early for one of those, and to infiltrate for tech stealing and its too low a difficulty for that to be of any real use. My comment about being able to see the cities was just for making use of what you had!

well, Stonehenge was a fluke as I didn't expect to actually complete it, but it's proven itself useful in the new border cities, esp. Konya which would've lost the horse tile without the free monument.

It could have been settled earlier if fewer wonders had been built! Its also a stronger city than Konya, even without the Horses and could have got a Library up to culture steal them if necessary.

As for Pyramids, early Representation is always extremely powerful...

Always? No. And its never going to be extremely poweful if you completely fail to use it as you have done here, you are after all not running a single specialist anywhere so all its giving you is some which could be gotten elsewhere, and +3 per turn from the settled GSpy, which is rubbish for the cost of 2.5 settlers, workers to speed up growth, or a small army!

The Pyramids are good when you have a food heavy region and intend to run lots of specialists (probably scientists), otherwise its not going to help any.

On the other hand the GLighthouse was a good choice on a map like this.

And you can't "improve" farms at all until Biology, which arrives long after lumbermills & railroads. Workshops flat out suck until Guilds+Chemistry, and even then give less yield than a railroaded lumbermill unless you run Caste System and/or State Property. (And FWIW I've already chopped five forests in Istanbul, and Bursa & Konya are about to undergo major chop-fests, so let it not be said that I never chop!!!)

The biggest problem with Lumbermills is it requires you to keep virtually worthless tiles for the a very long time, including the most important part of the game, and in doing so prevent you getting the 30 from them (you don't want to be working them!)....
Workshops on the other hand can be built on any flat land at any point, so your free to build them wherever you want, also the path to Communism is much shorter than to Railroad. State Property of course being one of the 2 standard late game civics, having a very short set up time (as opposed to Corps) making it particularly useful for war.

 

[jerVL/kg]

On a personal note, I respect that entirely. It's just that you'll have to expect that most of the guys around here won't be able to help a lot because salvaging forests and working unimproved tiles is a heresy to them (me included ). However I doubt you'll ever win an Emperor game that way, let alone a 550 AD conquest . But I've been wrong many times before

And I completely respect the players who can play the super-high difficulty levels like no tomorrow, chop/whip an army out of nowhere and conquer an enemy twice as powerful as them. And I *have* given serious consideration to attempting a game on Monarch, to see if my strategies work as well on that level...but honestly, IMHO the only reason to do so would be if the current difficulty ever gets boring. And I'm not bored yet -- heck, this is the third game in a row where I've Oracle'd CS without breaking a sweat (whereas I used to not be able to build the wonder at all), and I'm still lovin' it!

You're right about the fact that there's nothing interesting to improve on a non-riverside plains (pre-biology or pre-chemistry or whatever). What's interesting about chopping a plains forest is purely for the 30 production. Most of the time I don't care about losing the +1 +2 yield of the forested plains because I'd probably never work it in the first place

But where are those 30 hammers going? If you chop a forge, you get paid back in bonus hammers very quickly. If you chop a unit, you get...a unit. Yawn. I guess that would make sense in a different game with different circumstances, but I can't see the logic in chopping Istanbul when it can build 2-turn axemen already.

That said, I might just humor you guys and chop those forests later, probably when it's time to build the AP. Just don't ask me to chop the forested peak -- that's asking too much.

 

[lymond]

Dude, you gotta chop some stuff once in a while...

I think that's what Lymond is referring to: you're working loads of unimproved tiles because you won't chop'em. Plus you're not benefiting from all the production chopped forests give you. What difficulty level are you playing?

^^^this

 

[Seraiel]

I'll give you a logical reason why chopping units makes sense in your case.

1 unit / turn > 0.5 units / turn.

I'd also like you to see, that 1 and 2 is a great difference to 1 and 3 from a grassland mine. Leave away the and just compare , then the 2nd tile gives 50% more than the 1st one.

Regarding everything else I don't say anything, as everybody imo shall have his / her fun the way he / she likes as long as he doesn't harm others!

I'm quite sure that lymond lied when he said that his eyes were bleeding because of how you improved Istanbul, I'm quite sure he ment that his eyes were bleeding because the turks live there .

But lymond: Instead of the turks, would it be better if the Americans lived there? I'm quite sure that the city wouldn't have a Library then, isn't that really mean lymond, that you want to take the library from the inhabitants of Istanbul?



Seraiel

 

[jerVL/kg]

[The Great Wall is] not important in any way shape or form unless you have huge amounts of empty land surrounding you. even if SB wasn't there you would only have had to worry about defending one side with Axes. The early GSpy was actually a bad thing to get, you could easily have scoped out SBs cities using your Open Borders agreement.

Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree here. TGW may seem like a waste at this late date, but for awhile, my only cities were Istanbul/Edirne/Ankara. TGW allowed me to grab the earliest wonders with only one warrior per city for defense (keeping in mind, at this point I'd assumed I was completely isolated) and I doubt very much that I could have scored CS from the Oracle without it.

That said, clearly my biggest mistake was not bothering to completely explore the continent, and assume I was isolated even after my medic scout was killed by a wounded C2 barb warrior. On the other hand, had I discovered Sitting Bull's existence on turn 20 instead of turn 150, I almost certainly would have reloaded the initial autosave and deleted his units via worldbuilder...then I would've continued to build my pacifist tree-hugging empire in perfect solitude and we wouldn't be having this scintillating conversation -- so please, at least give me credit for stepping outside my comfort zone here!

The Pyramids are good when you have a food heavy region and intend to run lots of specialists (probably scientists), otherwise its not going to help any.

Hey, don't knock the +3 happiness! Istanbul would be at max happy without it. Plus, there's the very useful +2GE points to consider as well. Yes, yes, I'm not running many (any?) specialists at the moment...but just you wait, the way this thread is going, eventually I'll cave in to peer pressure and farm over those ugly yucky nasty overgrown forests.

 

[jerVL/kg]

I'll give you a logical reason why chopping units makes sense in your case.

1 unit / turn > 0.5 units / turn.

For the first 2 or 3 units, sure. But then what?

I'd also like you to see, that 1 and 2 is a great difference to 1 and 3 from a grassland mine. Leave away the and just compare , then the 2nd tile gives 50% more than the 1st one.

Naturally, given the choice between working a plains forest or a grassland mine, I'd work the mine. But I don't have any more mines to work. And given your analogy, I'm even more baffled at how a 2/1/0 farm gives more production than a 1/2/0 forest??? Isn't that a net LOSS of one hammer/turn per forest?

Regarding everything else I don't say anything, as everybody imo shall have his / her fun the way he / she likes as long as he doesn't harm others!

I completely agree! Heck, sometimes I even feel bad about rolling over the AI civs when they did nothing to deserve it.
Sitting Bull, however, is not one of those innocent undeserving civs...