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Help me play at Monarch, please.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Callidus Thorn, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I would be curious to see some details on what turn the tiles were improved and what techs each approach yields here. Chopping 6 forests will have consumed ~24 worker turns by this point so some of the advantage of having more workers faster is negated. Gwynnja's S5 capitol will also be ready to 6 > 3 whip another settler (with OF hammers) in ~5T.

    Given at least comparable results i would choose food over chopping..
     
  2. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    "I would be curious to see some details ..."

    First 34 Turns

    Settle in place 4000 BC turn one
    First worker complete 3400 BC
    Worker Steal 3200 BC
    2nd worker complete (chopped) 3080 BC Turn 23
    Stolen worker begins chopping, AG research complete. 3040 BC turn 24
    Settler completes turn 32
    Second city founded 2640 BC turn 34

    workers have farmed corn, and mined gems, pig will be pastured in 3 turns, copper mined in 4 turns.
    Have built one warrior, working on a second warrior and barracks.
    And signed peace with the civ i stole the worker from.
     

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  3. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    It would be interesting to follow the tile improvements, particularly if we view not worked tiles as waste. You could compare the yield of the earlier improved Food First tiles to the yield of the greater in numbers, but later improved, Chop First approach to see who wasted the least.
     
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Here's another take to T50. AG->AH->BW->TW->Pot->Wri
    Spoiler :

    Stole a worker early and they were standing around a couple of turns with nothing to do before BW. I have 7 more forests left and they will be chopped after math, so 210 hammers in store. A couple of forests are prechopped. That grasshill I chopped by mistake, my intention was to prechop. London is working a couple of cottages already, York is small as I just 2 pop whipped a granary.

    Forgot to take peace with Rammy. :crazyeye:
     
  5. kevtrev

    kevtrev Chieftain

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    I'm glad there's a discussion going on about the opening in games like this because usually I'm overwhelmed by the options. However I don't think worker stealing should be permitted if we're going for a fair comparison. Maybe a more experienced member wants to set-up a Kossin-style micro challenge in which we compare cities, workers, population, improved tiles and forests used at a certain cut-off point. Maybe I should do it. Would anyone be interested in something like that?
     
  6. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    This is actually what I wanted to show with my pic above. Stealing a worker makes a huge difference. I think this is also the reason why Ringo Kid looked to be in pretty good shape despite the BW opening. Not because of chopping a worker, but because of stealing one.
     
  7. chessplaya

    chessplaya Prince

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    When Civ 4 was first released all the good players started with this strategy because pre-math chops were worth 30 hammers each. This was changed in a patch as a result, because players didn't want only one strategy to be optimal. Since then players seldom recommend chopping before working food tiles.

    As far as comparing starts, elitetroops' start seems much better than Ringo Kid's to me. Even besides the forests that were saved, having ~150 extra beakers is quite a bit, and the population isn't significantly different. The only downside I could find is one less worker, but I don't see that as being a real problem.
     
  8. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    Seems to me the problem with testing is every game has different benchmarks for "success". For me with this map its getting a half dozen axemen out asap so I can conquer Egypt. But if the closest AI was a strong early civ a different approach would be called for. So really hard if not impossible to get a meaningful answer.
     
  9. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    I played the start for a while and eliminated the two nearby civs, and went over to the other continent and vassalled the annoying culture monger civ that beat me last time. That'll teach them. :)
     
  10. Gwynnja

    Gwynnja Deity

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    I'm counting 6 vs. 5. Chop first I see two grassland hill mines (unworked too wtf?) gems, copper, corn, and pigs. Food first has Clam, Gems, grassland hill mine, pigs and corn.
    I think elitetroops is the best of the three, and by far at that, although I didn't worker steal. That certainly makes a difference. I actually haven't even met Ramer yet.
    Absolutely. I played to T100 and built the Great Lighthouse, had 8 coastal cities, and oracled civil service. I didn't dow anyone because I wanted those wonders and I didn't feel any sort of close borders. I'm in a great position to lib cuirs and stomp longbows around 800 ad and then cav stomp the rest of the map at my leisure.
     
  11. Mec AntiKythera

    Mec AntiKythera King

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    I think we are both off by one, it looks to be 7 vs, 5, I probably counted a city as a worked tile and you didn't count the Clams. I edited my post to reflect this, but the stolen worker makes this count irrelevant anyway.

    elite, did you improve all tiles before chopping, all food tiles, or not all tiles before chopping (by accident or not)? Thanks for posting your trial, btw.
     
  12. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    I improved corn, pigs and gems, then workers had to take a break for a few turns until BW was in. Then I'm not 100% sure how I did the next part.. I think I 2 pop whipped one settler, one of the chops went into a workboat and the other into the 2nd settler.

    Yes, to really benchmark different approaches, a common goal would have to be set. In this case there's nothing wrong with axe rushing Egypt (didn't explore his territory, so don't know what he has), but I would probably do it a bit differently. York and Nottingham can handle the axe production. Half a dozen axemen is basically two 2 pop whips and two chops, so 4 turns with two cities, including the T0 setup. With granaries they would grow back to 4 pop quickly for the next round. I noticed you were building barracks. For an axe rush I much rather have granaries in every city than barracks in every city. London in the meantime would not whip, but build library, work cottages and possibly scientists. This way the axe rush wouldn't really interfere with my economy buildup at all.

    On a higher level I'd probably get some axes from London as well, but on Monarch I don't expect to face much defenses, so that is not needed.
     
  13. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    Did not yet have pottery- so was building barracks until I could build granary.

    I do need to improve my whipping efficiency- when rushing I just whip as often as possible until I have as many axes and horsemen as I need, which is not the best way to do it.
     
  14. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    You should try 2 pop whipping axes, it's super efficient. First turn invest max 4 hammers into axe, then 2 pop whip with almost 30 overflow and you can mostly get 2 axes 2 turns in a row. If you have a chop coming in on the third turn, you can usually get 3 axes in 3 turns.
     
  15. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    Just to be sure I understand- How do you control then number of hammers on the first turn? Micro manage the city screen so that food is worked instead? Does it have to be exactly 4 hammers? Or is that the number for maximum efficiency. Thanks.
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep. Basically, if your city is not settled on a bonus hammer tile, the city tile and a mine gives you 4 base hammers into an Axe. All other citizens work non-hammer tiles. If I was working more than one mine I will switch off one of the mines. Depending on size of the city (have to be at least pop 4 at the time) I will switch back to mines after the whip to max OF that turn, but it depends on food and growth. If whipping from 4 to 2, I might prioritize food.

    In other cases, hypothetically, if whipping in cities without improvements, I will work forests to add up to 4 hammers
     
  17. chessplaya

    chessplaya Prince

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    No, it has to be between 1 and 4 hammers. Often 4 hammers is best because you need to invest 10 hammers into finishing the second axe (plus 60 hammers from whipping). With more than 4 hammers it only sacrifices 1 citizen instead of 2, so it won't work. With no hammers invested there is a 50% penalty for whipping.
     
  18. Callidus Thorn

    Callidus Thorn Chieftain

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    Well, now that I'm able to sign in again,time to get back to this. I've played as far as 200bc(got a little carried away and lost track of the turns). I'm amazed none of them declared war on me yet. I was thinking about hurling elepults at Hannibal then Rameses, should I have already started by this point? At noble I tended to rely on late-game wars, outside of early rushes, so I'm not sure.

    Have I made any stupid mistakes? Anything you can point out that I should have done better?(besides the total neglect of the military)




     

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  19. Solyaris

    Solyaris Warlord

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    You do alot of things right, but you still specialize your city way to little. I made a save with changes and comments, main points beeing:
    - Cities along river should be cottage cities and grow to cap (max before red face) ASAP, even if that means you wont work gold for some turns.
    - You still have 2-3 too few workers (too many unimproved tiles at 200BC, esp in your capitol)
    - You should trade more (can easily get 200 gold and many techs from AI), and why are you researching construction? If you want a catapult war, you are kinda late. Go either for music or CS (my choice would be CS, since you dont have marble and you capitol is great)
    - Why not change to hinduism? Only diplomatic bonus, and most of your cities have hinduism from before
    - Why do both of your northern cities have 1, and only 1(!), cottage each? Either make them commerce cities (cottage all land) or make them production cities.

    Questions:
    Do you know what to do with the GS?
    Will you go for war? Against whom? When?
    Have you dicided on victory? My advice would be either culture (you can easily get 3 religions by bulbing philosophy, both tatoism and confusim catedral need copper for double speed and you can get 9 cities) or war (you have techlead)
     

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  20. Ringo Kid

    Ringo Kid Prince

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    Check to see if anyone has built a useful wonder, and if so, go get it. Going for Feudalism and Guilds can be good to get knights and vassals. Knights for conquest, and vassals to trade tech with.
     

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