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Help me win Immortal more consistently!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Zaddy, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Hi all, I've been playing Civ4 on and off for about 7 years, and it's become undoubtedly my favorite game of all time. Watching others and lurking here for years, I've absorbed enough info to begin winning on Immortal! I have several wins under my belt on both Pangaeas and continents style maps.

    The issue is two-fold:

    I'm probably only winning ~50% of games I play
    When I do win, it usually is a super late domination win with tanks really late into the game

    both of these suggest pretty significant shortcomings in how I play, because as we've seen from the talented folks here (almost?) 100% of Immortal maps are winnable, and in a much earlier timeframe. So I've decided to start a shadow game so the experts can help me up my game. :)

    Here's our settings...

    Spoiler Game Settings :
    upload_2020-2-27_17-37-48.png

    Everything standard! Not sure what the consensus is on Big and Small here but I've taken a liking to it! Saladin was given to me by the random leader option. He's not exactly fantastic but definitely not the worst!


    ...and our start:

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-2-27_17-38-42.png

    So much food! :crazyeye: Too bad our leader's starting techs make this start pretty awkward...

    Warrior doesn't seem to be in a position to reveal anything that would take me away from all this yummy food and PH. Moving the Warrior 1SW seems like a no brainer...

    My opinion is that we have pretty decent food with the corn and flood plains letting us skip Fishing for the time being. Start with Agriculture > Pottery > Mining > BW? Then maybe Fishing after BW?


    I'll provide the save below. Unfortunately, I use the BAT Mod which doesn't have BUG's option to not need to be loaded as a mod. Therefore, I think you'll need BAT to play this? If someone can tell me a way to turn this into a normal save for the rest of you, I'd share that!

    Cheers!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Everyone should use BAT....but you can open the Turn 0 save in worldbuilder and save it. Save will be in saves/worldbuilder. Folks can play it as a scenario.
     
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  3. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Cheers! The WB save is linked below. Promise I didn't peek at anything ;)
     

    Attached Files:

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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I have had troubles installing bat and can't load files, and the trick @lymond mentions only work for the T0 save, but you could do that as that would be helpful for more people to chime in.

    Did you say warrior SW is a no brainer...? So you mean SE?
    I think warrior NE is the best here, logical scouting pattern.

    One idea is to settle 1N, as that guarantees ability to split that food into another city down south, but I don't think we should do such fancy things. SiP is perfecly fine, worst case you can simply ignore alot of the food for a long time onwards.

    This is rock solid reasoning imho.
    "My opinion is that we have pretty decent food with the corn and flood plains letting us skip Fishing for the time being."
    I like worker first and agriculture here too, but don't commit tech until T5!

    Also not 100% sure that we can afford to go pottery after agri though, might have to sprint to BW to get some production going.
    Since saladin start with TW, you can connect second city no matter what, and those internal traderoutes+oasis+river tiles commerce guarantees that you can afford non-economic production techs for quite some time. (Agri->Min->BW->AH is plausable).
     
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  5. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    One word: subbed.
     
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  6. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Yes, silly me, I meant SE. :crazyeye: I guess because the warrior is unlikely to reveal anything of value going SE, it's best to just begin the scouting from T0?

    I keep hearing about waiting to commit to teching something until T5 but I'm not sure why that would be advantageous. Can you explain?

    Interesting point about going for BW earlier. We do have some pretty good natural commerce here so we could probably get away with doing for BW first and save Pottery for later.

    AH wouldn't be something that stands out to be as a good choice here though. Only one pasture resource that we can see and no room for Horses in the capitol. AH is usually something I backfill after Alpha unless I have multiple pasture resources (or I'm Egypt :mischief:). If we continue to only see the cows do you still think AH would be a good idea?
     
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  7. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Zaddy What you do is that you are asked each turn to choose tech, you select something then de-select again.
    Only at T5 you pick a tech and stick to it.
    You lose _no_ beakers this way, all beakers you gained T0->T4 is stored in a secret hidden box.
    You do this, because sometimes you want to go one tech T0, only to have gained more info T5 that might make you change your mind.
    (Also you can get some minor small discount if you meet some AIs before T5, but thats not he big thing.)

    Regarding tech path BW/AH etc.
    Main thing I wanted to point out, is that there is natural commerce and BW early on makes sense.
    The cows are a good tile, but likely AH is not warranted if no other AH resources show up.
    But it's ages before you have to decide on that. :) Agri->Min->BW first, then we are already up at T25 or something like that, and have much more info.

    Regarding warrior, perhaps a move SE will reveal two desert gold or something like that, that could warrant a settler move SE to the south of the oasis, but I highly doubt it, so warrior NE is just getting on with the scouting.
     
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  9. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    I may be doing you a disservice mentioning this as you just want to get comfortable on immortal, but...

    Non-deity Arabia with oasis and tons of food smells like early religion (polytheism first) to me. But I've not looked at the timings.
     
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  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    You gain roughly 2,5:science: if you meet someone who has the tech you are going for next, so say you go agri here and manage to meet 2 AIs on T5, you gain 5:science:.That's quite a lot actually. :) Therefore, meeting AIs tends to be my 1st priority for the starting scout/warrior, only then revert to normal scouting/fogbusting duties.

    Also, getting a bigger bulk of :science: in one go is better, if you are researching a tech that has a pre-requisite. That may or may not win you :science: at the course of the first 5 turns, but you don't need to worry about that. It's always better to select/de-select for 5T than not to do it.
     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Rusten one could look at the demographics (GNP) too I guess?
    If the average is low, there might be few myst starters and most will be going for a tier one tech.

    Care to elaborate abit on the advantages of an early religion? Is it mostly just the +1 happines for free, or do you change the techpath altogether somehow?
     
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  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    If you start with poly, what is your first build? I'm assuming settler.
     
  13. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    The advantage isn't so much early religion, but early religion + spiritual. Means you you get both happiness (adopt religion) and OR switch without anarchy. Sending a missionary to go with settlers is very strong in the later expansion phase. Cheaper granary and culture for the border pop. The strength of OR is why I will always go polytheism over meditation, despite the latter being cheaper.

    It doesn't need to alter the tech path much, but it can. With Arabia you can easily go for all the religious wonders (prophet bulb theology and divine right). You can also get an extra prophet for a shrine with ease. The situation on T0 is tailor made for religion, so if there's ever a game where you want to try it this is it.

    Big&Small immortal usually leaves a lot of room for peaceful expansion, so there's efficiency to be gained later with religious civics.

    Usually I would just grow to size 2 with a warrior, but with a PH start you can definitely consider settler first, yes. Would help to see the land after settling Mecca.
     
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  14. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Low average GNP means fewer players starting with Mysticism?
     
  15. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    No, low average GNP means many AIs are going for a tier one tech (i.e. a tech with no pre-requisites).
     
  16. Zaddy

    Zaddy Warlord

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    Interesting, and not something I would have thought about! But you're right, it probably wouldn't help me to do weird edge case strats even if they are good!

    Spoiler :


    Anyways, I opt to move my warrior 1SE...

    upload_2020-2-27_20-25-52.png

    :mischief: This certainly opens us up for the Mids, I would think! Which would be fantastic with all this food! In my experience, you typically don't need stone in your first city to get the mids on IMM and we have lots of forest to chop...

    With that in mind, I SIP.

    upload_2020-2-27_20-36-11.png

    On turn three, I meet Justinian's scout coming from the east. Somewhat concerning, we're on a peninsula of sort and Justinian likes to grab LOTS of land in my experience. I finish Agri and start on Mining. On T9, Justin founds Buddhism. Not a big surprise.

    upload_2020-2-27_20-39-58.png

    Here we are at T10. Worker coming out soon!


    Thoughts?
     

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  17. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Seeing that you don't really have a great 2nd city spot, I wouldn't have been so hasty on mining-BW (AH would allow a city 3S of capital). You will also need a bunch of those forests for Mids. The best seen 2nd city spot now is IMO on the stone. Working a farmed fp it creates 4:food:3:hammers: which is equal to working grass cow (extra :hammers: comes from city center). 8 turns of roading is a lot though, but if you go NE-NE-SE from capital you can also connect the city that catches the last floodplain. Map doesn't seem easy btw, since it's hard to share food and outside capital you don't have much to work with.
     
  18. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    You really ought to scout wider in the starting turns, it will help you a lot in the future.

    You'd have a much clearer picture of where to put your 2nd city and how many you could reasonably settle before stumbling upon Byzantine culture. The area south of the capital can be always be unfogged by your 2nd warrior. Walking all the way over there wastes a lot of time. You want to take advantage of the first 10 turns being without barbarians (animals) and get more done.

    edit: But stone for spiritual mids is great news!
     
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  19. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Indeed, the moment your warrior sees southern shore just turn back inlands. For now it doesn't matter if there is ocean fish or not (or even coastal seafood).
     
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  20. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Good to see Rusty Rusten!

    Yeah, all over that stone. No food resource which belies the standard advice, but itcan use the FPs as a helper city and get farms later, with some natural production. Probably build Mids right there.

    GLH usually good on this map too, and you have an island to settle and share all those clams for boosted trade routes.

    Not sure worker first was best here. I guess you can road everywhere, but otherwise nothing much to do for some time. Instead get a coupla more warriors out and whip worker..maybe steal worker from Justbyznian. Sal can be really tough on certain starts with those techs of his, sometimes you may have to go outside the box.

    Zaddy...your lack of emphasis on early BW may be part of your issues
     

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