Help Needed! Maximum map size!

[Jopo]

Ok, I´m a noob in scripting of all forms in all games and I need some expert help to make my vision come true.

I want to create as large a map as Civ 4 allows me to create, I will then hand paint the map to perfection and play it till I get bored or the game freezes to unplayable slowness. I hope they fix this problem in Civ 5 and make even the larger maps function smoothly and with speed.

My problem is...

I´ve tried to create a larger map by altering the map scripts a little bit.
I made a copy of the original Terra map script and altered this part:

def getGridSize(argsList):
"Enlarge the grids! According to Soren, Earth-type maps are usually huge anyway."
grid_sizes = {
WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_DUEL: (13,8),
WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_TINY: (16,10),
WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_SMALL: (21,13),
WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_STANDARD: (26,16),
WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_LARGE: (32,20),
WorldSizeTypes.WORLDSIZE_HUGE: (38,24)

I altered the Huge numbers from 38,24 to 80,50 or so, I tried several alternatives, but it doesn´t seem to work, the map should be at least twice the size, but it´s still the same size, it hasn´t changed at all when I try to create a world with this altered script.

These are the numbers controlling the map size aren´t they?

I found some information about the limits of map sizes:

Quote: "Is there a way, if you were insane enough, to play on maps that were bigger than 256x256? Say 520x520 or even double that? This is in C3C is it matters."

"Thanks." (I second that question, is there a way to make really huge maps?)

Quote:
"The theoretical limit is a size where the maximum WIDTH*HEIGHT=131072 (65536 TILES)
The editor addresses this limit in a bad way by seting the limit to 362x362 which is the largest square map that is allowed by the system. Howver, with the limits set in the editor you can not make a larger rectangualr map even thou the game would (probably) handle it without any problem.

I think that limits more in line with the Civ2 mapsize limit (I.e no dimmension can be less then 16 or larger than 1024 and the product of the two dimensions must be less than or equal to 131072)

So to answer uor question the maximum possible mapsize is currently 362x362"

This was from a Civ-3 discussion apparently, so what are the limits in Civ-4?

I tried calculating numbers according to these limits, no more than 65536 tiles on the map, that makes for 320 tiles x 200 tiles = 64000 tiles, translated to squares of 4 tiles, that makes 80 x 50 squares.
I tried setting the HUGE map values from (38,24) to (80,50), with no apparent change in the map size, what am I doing wrong?

Can somebody please help me make my map true? Please give me instructions on how to change the map size.

Thank you.

Cheers from Finland!

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Moderator Action: Thread moved to the main forum.

Welcome to CFC, Jopo! Try to keep question threads here in the main Creation and Customization forum.

 

[Jopo]

Thank you for the advice.

Can someone please help me with my problem? How do you change mapsize?

 

[The_J]

In the file Assets\XML\GameInfo\WorldInfo.xml normally the sizes for the maps are stored, but some of the scripts change it, so i guess, it should not have an effect.

How did you change the values?
If you changed them when you've been ingame, you have to reload civ.

 

[Jopo]

Thanks, that helped somewhat.
Could someone help me read this script?

<WorldInfo>
<Type>WORLDSIZE_HUGE</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE</Description>
<Help>TXT_KEY_WORLD_HUGE_HELP</Help>
<iDefaultPlayers>11</iDefaultPlayers>
<iUnitNameModifier>0</iUnitNameModifier>
<iTargetNumCities>6</iTargetNumCities> (what does this mean? How many cities the AI aims to have? I´ll just set that to somewhere like 100 and watch the AI start massive landgrab wars )
<iNumFreeBuildingBonuses>7</iNumFreeBuildingBonuses> (what about this one? Free building bonuses? )
<iBuildingClassPrereqModifier>100</iBuildingClassPrereqModifier> (building class prerequisite modifier ???? HELP ? )
<iMaxConscriptModifier>75</iMaxConscriptModifier> ??
<iWarWearinessModifier>-50</iWarWearinessModifier> ???
<iGridWidth>32</iGridWidth> (ok, THIS is the info I was looking for I guess, but how do I read it? 32 WHAT? Is it 32 squares of 4 tiles or what? )
<iGridHeight>20</iGridHeight>
<iTerrainGrainChange>1</iTerrainGrainChange>
<iFeatureGrainChange>1</iFeatureGrainChange>
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent> (this has something to do with research speed I guess, but what? )
<iTradeProfitPercent>30</iTradeProfitPercent> (trade profit percent ?? Hmmm, interesting, what if I kicked that up to 100? )
<iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
<iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>20</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent> (what about this?)
<iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>6</iNumCitiesAnarchyPercent>
</WorldInfo> (or this?)

Could someone please help me a bit with these scripts? Thanks.

What about the maximum size of maps? is there an upper limit to how large a map can be?

This file is Civ4/assets/xml/gameinfo/CIV4worldinfo.xml

 

[The_J]

fu**, this file is not in the modiki.

iNumFreeBuildingBonuses: Bonuses you get from Broadway, Hollywood, Rock'n Roll.
iTargetNumCities: How many buildings you need to build other ones, like the X universities for the oxford university.
iMaxConscriptModifier: I guess the you get from conscripting.
iWarWearinessModifier: %-Modifier on the war weariness.
iGridWidth: It really seems to be 4 fold.
iResearchPercent: Yes, % modifier on the research (>100 longer, < shorter)
iTradeProfitPercent: 100%, you'll just get doulbe of the trade.
iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent: % modifier on the city number maintenance.

 

[Jopo]

Ok, thanks

Any knowledge on how large the maps can be? The absolute maximum size? How many tiles is maximum ? In Civ 3 it was something like 65536 or 131044 tiles, I´m not sure which.

So is this worldinfo.xml the only file I need to edit? I don´t need to edit the Civ4/publicmaps/somemapscript.py (for example the Terra.py)?

Can somebody interpret the rest of the script elements, what do they mean?

Like "WarWearinessModifier" How do I use it? Default setting is -50 what happens if I change it?

What about "DistanceMaintenancePercent" Is it how long a distance AI keeps between cities or what?

INumCitiesMaintenancePercent: So it modifies the city maintenance cost by a percentage, what sort of tricks can you do with it? You can increase or decrease the city maintenance cost. If you put it to a civilizations init path, you could give some civilization, like the Chinese cheap cities, right?

IMaxConscriptModifier: If this is how much anger you get from conscripting, then you could give some civilizations unlimited conscripting ability, make a real tough warlike civilization, like the Aztecs or Native Americans.

So the "GridWidth" and "GridHeight" are numbers in 4 fold? so its 32 x 4 = 128 tiles and 20 x 4 = 80 tiles, 128x80 tiles, How about 600x400 ? or larger? A REALLY HUGE map.

Quote:
"iNumFreeBuildingBonuses: Bonuses you get from Broadway, Hollywood, Rock'n Roll."

Could you tell a little bit more about this? How do I use it? I´m a noob in scripting, sorry.

"BuildingClassPrereqModifier" Anyone got an explanation for this one?

Thanks.

 

[The_J]

Mainly: Use common sense .

Ok, thanks

Any knowledge on how large the maps can be? The absolute maximum size? How many tiles is maximum ? In Civ 3 it was something like 65536 or 131044 tiles, I´m not sure which.

[...]

So the "GridWidth" and "GridHeight" are numbers in 4 fold? so its 32 x 4 = 128 tiles and 20 x 4 = 80 tiles, 128x80 tiles, How about 600x400 ? or larger? A REALLY HUGE map.

I guess, one of the biggest maps here is 200*100 (*4), and this is where the computers already have begone to get memory allocation failures at the end of the game.

So is this worldinfo.xml the only file I need to edit? I don´t need to edit the Civ4/publicmaps/somemapscript.py (for example the Terra.py)?

Normally not, depends on if the script itself changes the values/overrides them.

Like "WarWearinessModifier" How do I use it? Default setting is -50 what happens if I change it?

Set it to 100, and you'll get doulbe the WW, set it to 0 and you'll get none.

What about "DistanceMaintenancePercent" Is it how long a distance AI keeps between cities or what?

No, it's a percent modifier on the maintenance for the distance .
100 = double maintenance for the distance of the cities.

INumCitiesMaintenancePercent: So it modifies the city maintenance cost by a percentage, what sort of tricks can you do with it? You can increase or decrease the city maintenance cost. If you put it to a civilizations init path, you could give some civilization, like the Chinese cheap cities, right?

IMaxConscriptModifier: If this is how much anger you get from conscripting, then you could give some civilizations unlimited conscripting ability, make a real tough warlike civilization, like the Aztecs or Native Americans.

Would be nice, but no, it depends really only of the size of the map.

"iNumFreeBuildingBonuses: Bonuses you get from Broadway, Hollywood, Rock'n Roll."

Could you tell a little bit more about this? How do I use it? I´m a noob in scripting, sorry.

If you set it to 5, you'll get 5 musicals from the Broadway wonder.
If you set it to 3, only 3.
And so on.

 

[Jopo]

Thanks a ton, really helps!

So, no information yet on the iBuildingClassPrereqModifier ? Could have something to do with building costs?

It´s BuildingClass, a class of buldings and Prereq, prerequisite, that puzzles me, what do they mean by this prereq, something that you need before building or something? ...and Modifier is a modifier that´s clear.

About computers failing at mapsizes of 200*100, is it a program error or a computer error, I mean could a modern machine hack even the larger mapsizes or will they too fail? I would hate to play all along a game towards the end and have the game crash on me.

How about MAXIMUM UNIT COUNT, where is that number contained, what file? How many units can one side have or how many units in the game total? I´d like to change that to such a large number that it will never be reached, no matter how long the game or how much units sides produce.

Cheers!


Question!: How long do I have to wait till I can send Private Messages? Is it 5 days from joining or what?

 

[The_J]

About computers failing at mapsizes of 200*100, is it a program error or a computer error, I mean could a modern machine hack even the larger mapsizes or will they too fail? I would hate to play all along a game towards the end and have the game crash on me.

It's a computer and a program problem.
Civ can maximum use 2 GB or RAM, with a hack maximum 3 Gb, this is due to a restriction of windows and the current overall computer technology.
As long as you don't want to rewrite Windows and Civ4, there'll be no real fix.

And the 200*100 is not a fixed size. Bigger maps will just crash earlier. Theoretically a crash because of missing RAM could on a computer with low RAM and low HDD space even occur in the early time on a small map.

How about MAXIMUM UNIT COUNT, where is that number contained, what file? How many units can one side have or how many units in the game total? I´d like to change that to such a large number that it will never be reached, no matter how long the game or how much units sides produce.

There's no such limit, only the above mentioned one.

Question!: How long do I have to wait till I can send Private Messages? Is it 5 days from joining or what?

5 days and 5 posts.
If you are then still unable to sent PMs, you have to complain about it in the side feedback forum.

 

[Willem]

Any knowledge on how large the maps can be? The absolute maximum size? How many tiles is maximum ?

There isn't a computer in the world that can handle the theoretical maximum size of maps. The limit isn't within Civ 4 itself, but within computer technology. As The J pointed out, Civ 4 can only use up to 3 gigs of RAM at most, with the usual being 2 if you're running it on a 32 bit OS. And even with map sizes somewhat large than Huge, it's going to hit that limit by the end of the game. I adjusted my Huge map to accomodate 12 civs with the same ratio of land, a total of 36 x 24 grids, and I've seen the RAM usage go up to 1.5 gig by the end of the game. So there's not much left over to go beyond that.

 

[Jopo]

Well, I hope they make Civ 5 better able to use better computer technology.
So more computer power means more map space.
I´ve got a quad core cpu with 8 Gb of RAM, so if that´s the future average of computers, then I hope Civ 5 will be able to use AT LEAST that much of RAM and with virtual memory the amount of memory available could be even higher.

Besides, couldn´t they just make the maps "lighter" on the computers? I mean can´t they make the program use some sort of minimalization to save memory on larger maps, like use some sort of simpler graphics or something on the tiles that are out of sight, only use full graphics on tiles that are visible.

Do I guess correctly that placing more resources on the map also uses up memory? So if you have a map full of resources, it takes more memory to run?
Units also use up memory, correct?
So that´s why my game bogs down on full size maps, there´s lots of mapspace and plenty of units, so it´s heavier on the machine to run?

So what mapsizes are SAFE? How large can I make the maps WITHOUT crashing? If Civ 4 can only use 2 gigs of memory, then my machines 8 GBs won´t do any good, I hope they fix that on CIV 5 and make the program able to use memory on future machines which have plenty more of memory.

What about 64-bit Operating system? I´ve got Windows 7 on my new machine, so I hope the Civ 5 will use 64-bit technology. How is 64-bits better than 32-bits? what improvements does it allow? Civ 4 is 32-bits so on that too my 64 bits won´t do any good I guess?

Does having land on your map affect the memory usage, is land heavier on the memory than sea?

I read some information about 32-bit software being able to use 4gb of RAM at most and 64-bit presumably being able to use more.
So, can I make the Civ 4 use more memory than the default 2gb? I read that it is possible to make the program use 3gb at least, could I make it to use 4gb? I´ve got 8 gb of RAM on my machine so it´s not a problem, but can the program use it?

Cheers!

 

[Willem]

Well, I hope they make Civ 5 better able to use better computer technology.

As long as it uses 3D graphics, there's only so much they can do.

I´ve got a quad core cpu with 8 Gb of RAM, so if that´s the future average of computers, then I hope Civ 5 will be able to use AT LEAST that much of RAM and with virtual memory the amount of memory available could be even higher.

Civ 5 is still going to be a 32 bit program. As such the most it can use is 3 gig of RAM, 2 if someone is using a 32 bit OS.

Units also use up memory, correct?

That's one area that might allow Civ 5 to have larger maps. By the sounds of it there will be a lot less units in play at any one time.

So what mapsizes are SAFE? How large can I make the maps WITHOUT crashing?

You'll have to experiment and find out for yourself.

If Civ 4 can only use 2 gigs of memory, then my machines 8 GBs won´t do any good, I hope they fix that on CIV 5 and make the program able to use memory on future machines which have plenty more of memory.

Not possible for Civ 5 since it's a 32 bit program. That's simply a physical limitation of that type of programming.

What about 64-bit Operating system? I´ve got Windows 7 on my new machine, so I hope the Civ 5 will use 64-bit technology.

Not enough people are using 64 bit yet to justify them making the game for that type of system. Maybe by the time Civ 6 comes out, who knows.

How is 64-bits better than 32-bits? what improvements does it allow?

Well for one thing it will allow the OS and any program you run to use alot more RAM. While the theoretical limit is in the thousands of gigs, I believe the cap with Microsoft OSs is something like 128 gig.

Civ 4 is 32-bits so on that too my 64 bits won´t do any good I guess?

Sort of. Civ 5 will no doubt be large address aware (look it up on Google, I don't want to take forever to explain it) so it will be able to use the full 3 gig that 32 bit allows, instead of just 2 gig.

Does having land on your map affect the memory usage, is land heavier on the memory than sea?

I doubt it makes any difference.

 

[Androrc the Orc]

I doubt it makes any difference.

More land means more cities, so it probably does make quite a difference.

 

[Willem]

More land means more cities, so it probably does make quite a difference.

Yes, that's probably true. But it would be kind of pointless to have a massive map that was nothing but water.

 

[Jopo]

I hope they make two versions of Civ 5, a 32-bit version for those with older systems and a 64-bit version for those who have newer systems, it would be folly just to use 32-bit technology since its old and on its way out, lots of people still have 32-bit systems, but they will upgrade in a few years time and then they will curse the game if its stuck in 32-bit technology and its limit of ONLY 3 gigs of memory.

3 gigabytes is not nearly enough for huge maps, you need more memory, like 8 gigabytes or more, maybe 16 gigabytes or more, make the game use as much memory as there is available, I say.

What about editing the boot.ini file of Civ 4? I hear that it is possible to enable it to use more memory that way?

 

[Willem]

I hope they make two versions of Civ 5, a 32-bit version for those with older systems and a 64-bit version for those who have newer systems, it would be folly just to use 32-bit technology since its old and on its way out, lots of people still have 32-bit systems, but they will upgrade in a few years time and then they will curse the game if its stuck in 32-bit technology and its limit of ONLY 3 gigs of memory.

It's just not economical to produce a game that has two different versions. 32 bit will also run on a 64 bit OS so that's the format they'll go with.

3 gigabytes is not nearly enough for huge maps, you need more memory, like 8 gigabytes or more, maybe 16 gigabytes or more, make the game use as much memory as there is available, I say.

There aren't enough people who want to play giganormous maps to justify accommodating them. I suspect most people settle for Standard in the first place, at least that's the impression I get reading the forum. Even the current Huge is too big for alot of players. And not just because of hardware restrictions but in how Huge maps play out. Many people find that Huge games drag out and take too long.

What about editing the boot.ini file of Civ 4? I hear that it is possible to enable it to use more memory that way?

Well first of all, the boot.ini file is only used with XP, not Vista and Windows 7. Those other OSs use something different, I forget what it's called now. And Civ 4 doesn't have one, that's an OS file, not a program one. If you have a 64 bit system with more memory, it's not even necessary to alter anything. You don't need to tell your OS it can use more memory for programs, it already knows. And that still only gives you a max of 3 gig instead of 2, that's simply a limitation of the programming used in 32 bit software. As for Civ 4 itself, BtS was made large address aware so it will already be making use of that extra gig on a 64 bit OS.

And even if you could get the game to use more RAM, you'd still be limited by your video card. You can only make the maps so large before your video card craps out. Granted at 2 gig of VRAM these days it might take awhile, but I suspect it will happen alot sooner on the maps you seem to want to play on. No matter which way you look at there's going to be a limitation as to how large of a map you can have, so you may as well learn to live with the limits rather than complain about them.