Help, no Iron - Which pre gunpoweder units to attack cities

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by padlock, Dec 17, 2010.

  1. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Either the game needs siege units that don't require resources, or it requires spies who can take down city walls or inhibit healing through espionage ;)
     
  2. Malkaviel

    Malkaviel Prince

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    This. Germany should always beeline or slingshot civil service. Lan's are ridiculously cheap for their era.
     
  3. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    The most feasible option would be to forget about conquering. Simply pillage their lands & try to get gunpowder units. Only then you'll be able to conquer otherwise if you try to create a huge army of lands & horses to attack you'll probably suffer very heavy losses. Maybe spamming Lands could work but I won't go that way.
     
  4. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    You know, the more I think about it, I'm not sure I'd be terribly upset if it were the case that you couldn't wage a cost-effective city-capturing war in the early game without iron. In Civ IV, I *loved* my protective longbow/catapult resourceless early wars, and they'd just continue when I got trebuchets - very cost effective, devastating, and no resources required. Now, it seems the early game may be defined by having iron or not - city capturing for expansion with iron, or defensive/pillaging oriented early game without iron, with more of a focus on expansion and building. It's not like having no iron means you can't do anything or can't be effective militarily - it just means capturing cities is going to be terribly non cost effective pre gunpowder.

    Usually, when you (well, when I) enter a Civ game you go in with a general gameplan. I want to early rush, I want to wage a swordsman war, I want to go for a cultural victory, I'm going to hold off until I get my UU then blitz someone, etc... Civ has be designed to accommodate us all in this little indulgence in pre-planning, but, maybe it's the intent to make early circumstances force you out of your gameplan. Not much other than unexpected war (IE - you failed at diplomacy in Civ IV) and having certain wonders stolen from you really interrupted one's perfect little plan in previous games. Maybe Civ V is intended to force us to scrap our plans a bit more, and this is an instance of it, rather than a design flaw.

    So yeah, this ain't Civ IV. Maybe the idea that you can pursue any gameplan with virtually any resources available is one I (we) should be looking at letting go by the wayside?

    Way to cut through the sense of entitlement Babri.
     
  5. player1 fanatic

    player1 fanatic Fanatic

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    I guess the reasoning was that cannon is the only ranged unit for that era, while catapult have resource-free alternative with archers.
     
  6. ButSam

    ButSam King

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    I haven't tried yet post-patch (playing a mostly peaceful game so far...but I also don't have iron). I have been doing some thinking though in my game since it may very well happen to me...although in my case, I do have city-states that have iron in their land.

    My biggest suggestion is to start by trying to take over coastal cities, using your navy to help. After all, naval units did get a plus up with the new patch, so perhaps that can counter the plus-up that cities experienced.

    For non-coastals, build lots of horse units and pikemen, with some archers (or other ranged units) to help you take out the defensive units and charge! Horses were weakened but they still can attack cities. They were too powerful in attacking cities before; I can't imagine a city wouldn't fall if you had 3-4 horsemen attacking it for a couple of turns.
     
  7. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Once in cIV using TR mod, me (Mali), Chinese & another civ (forgot their name) were present on one continent & that continent lacked horses & iron. I quickly eliminated one of the civ & then Chinese declared war on me. We fought an inconclusive war for many turns. Then I used the pillaging plan. My UU was a horse unit with better stats & not requiring horse. So I created few of them & pillaged EVERY single tile of my enemy & making them go bankrupt. It was so fun. Then once I got some gunpowder units, I conquered them with ease. I even signed peace with them once to get their good chunk of gold. :D
    BTW the bad side of spamming & conquering strategy is that you might lag in progress compared to the civs on the other continents but you can keep yourself up-to-date with pillage strategy.
     
  8. Lightzy

    Lightzy Warlord

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    That doesn't solve it. that removes it from the game.



    If you cant get iron I suppose u're gonna have to change ur game plan from aggressive warlord to defensive warlord for a while. ur go for a different type victory :)
     
  9. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke The Mad Modder

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    what?
     
  10. swordspider

    swordspider Dread Multiplayer

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    You can spam out Pikes. They are very effective if they are defended on a hill or forest. Plus, with a spearman upgrading into them, you can build as many as you can upgrade prior to the tech and save up some cash. That way as soon as you hit Civil Service, you can have like 5-7 pikes immediately.

    Did this just the other day, exact scenario as you said, no iron anywhere and no CS to trade it with. Other player was already 6 turns into his attack with swords and spears and horses. I kept my spears back and resisted using them to attack and as soon as I got the civil upgrade, popped them all to pikes. The pikes performed perfectly against the spears and horses, and pretty well against the swords too. I repelled the attack and sent a counterstrike and took down one of his cities.

    We peaced after that and then I b-lined for rifling and wasted him.
     
  11. BigChiefLizzy

    BigChiefLizzy Warlord

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    How about a battering ram type unit for the ancient era? No iron needed, it's just a large tree trunk.

    Could either be a stand alone military unit with a high defense against archers, but poor/terrible when attacked by melee/horse. Should have a good attack (not ranged) against cities but needs to be protected. Cheaper to build than a catapult, requires bronze working, move of 1 (or 2? could get tedious otherwise). Like the civ 4 catapult in some respects, if it's cheap enough you could treat them as fairly disposable. Or make it a unit which like GG, workers etc, can stack with a military unit on the same hex. The unit sharing it's hex gets a good melee attack bonus vs cities....
     
  12. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Even without Iron, a Great General and Discipline will make your archers and spears strong enough to perform siege. Post-patch I prefer to keep a standing army of horsemen and archers (if no iron) and to attack in the gunpowder/cannon era.
     
  13. player1 fanatic

    player1 fanatic Fanatic

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    Horsemen are no worse then spearmen for protecting archers or doing attacks themself against cities. But have one clear advantage. They can quickly retreat if things get tough, so they have higher survivability.
     
  14. MeowTau

    MeowTau Chieftain

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    What if siege units didn't cost iron?

    It would then be a challenge to take cities without iron, but still reasonably possible. Civ IV had a nice paper rock scissors balance between axemen and swordsmen, chariots, archers, etc. and iron and bronze resources. In Civ IV you could get by pretty well with either iron or bronze, but in Civ V there is only iron, and it is a disaster if you cannot obtain iron. Furthermore it must be shared between melee and siege units.

    It is things like this that make me wonder if they are ever going to be able to fix Civ V. It is as if the designers have no grasp of the subtle balances in Civ IV that made the game engaging. If siege is now required to take a city due to the archer and horsemen nerf vs cities, then siege should be something available to all civilizations.
     
  15. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    I really disagree with a lot of comments in this thread about the impossibility of no iron sieging. What seems to be an issue is that the player needs to adjust their grand strategy to fit the situation. Frankly, pre-patch this was never an issue, and one of the reasons the game was so easy. Little adaptation by the player was required ESPECIALLY warmongering. I have done several test games since the patch at high level and ran in to the no iron issue twice. In each case (Siam, Deity and Inca, Immortal) I was still able to effectively take cities.

    First thing is first. Determine iron availability. That means if you don't see any near you whatsoever, beeline Astronomy if you are on continents/arch, beeline Muskets if you are determined to warmonger, or get Civil Service/Chivalry and amass pikes and knights. One thing I love about the patch is that much more care has to go in to your frontline units. When attacking an enemy, there are several tips to follow. If they have lots of resource units, use horses to pillage those resources. The attack penalty will be utterly crippling. If you are going primarily with knights/pikes, find outlying cities with lower defense. ALWAYS draw out the AI forces first. don't go to them. Don't rush the big bad capital. Use the knights for hit and run on the city, and get solid surrounds. Lots of medic promotions for your ground troops are a necessary.

    If you don't want to bother with all of the extra steps necessary to no iron warmonger, change your gameplan. Focus on science to get to Ren faster. Use your gold to buy off CSes to attack your enemy.
     
  16. Rohili

    Rohili King

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    Exactly. A good Civ player should be able to adopt different strategies based on the hand he is dealt. No iron? Beeline for pikes and then only start waging warfare! Or adopt a peaceful early strategy - even if the AI declares war on you, it is far easier to defend your cities now.

    It's not as if the only way to win the game is through an early swordsman rush.
     
  17. RonMar

    RonMar Warlord

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    The lack of iron also inhibits upgrading units (warrior, spearmen, etc.) to riflemen later in the game. To upgrade you have to go through all the stages. However, in my current game (no iron except from one trading partner - 2 iron), when I finally got to riflemen, I elminated my iron deficit on the upgrade to riflemen!. Then, I could work on promoting another unit.
     
  18. bpheater

    bpheater Chieftain

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    What? The USA has plenty of oil... Hence the reason why it's easy for us to send the required resources overseas.
     
  19. bpheater

    bpheater Chieftain

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    I would just try to focus on defense and rush National College in the capital until you can build/buy some units that don't require iron. Defense is easy peasy in this game. Build some archers and smash the attackers with ranged attacks and city bombardments before they get in the one tile range. Use a couple horseman to clean up if the wounded units try to run away, which they probably won't. Once you kill off enough of the attacking units, your opponent will most likely request a peace treaty, possibly offering gold as well.

    Damn I use a lot of commas.
     

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