help on diety level

vanollefen

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2002
Messages
16
Playing the persians, around 600 BC, borderd by russians and babylon. got iron, started to build immortals. Both countries are much larger than me. How many immortals do I need to start a war with some chance of winning? I started one too early and am getting pasted, seems like the immortals are not very good defenders.

Also, I'm trying the O science buy technology strategy, but I am still far behind the AI. Can you catch up?

Thanks

Rich
 

SleeplessNights

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
5
Location
Adelaide
Don't look good Buddy. I'd say you'll have the 'stacks' coming down very shortly for a visit. ('Stacks'=lots of God damn units...)

Starting a war is a big call on Deity, thought war is a must, and the timing must be golden. I have found that you need a lots of units, first to win a battle and get some cities, and then to sacrifice some as the cities revert and you recapture (many a times over and over). I'd be comfortable with about 10 - 15 immortals though, as a guide.

Good thing about the Persians is the Golden Age, your cities will produce units faster.

I almost always 'join in' a war, rather than start one of my own bat. I have a looksie for few turns as the chaps go for it (send out a worker etc if needed to keep an eye on things), then pick on the side that seems to be losing.

Yes, bit cowardly, as my instincts are to 'help the weak', but the AIs don't give you any favours, so you got to do what you got to do. (I play on the large map, so even if some get eliminated early, there's always others to keep you on the toes.)

Techs.

The key is to 'even things out' reasonably in the tech department by the time AIs get to cavalry. That is I don't worry about the research much at all (here and there buying some if I got enough gold), instead rellying on getting lots of techs when negotiating for peace. You must be kicking up some dust though, and really be pushing your targeted AI. Then they give you all the techs they have, contacts, etc, for peace.

Just some thoughts.....

Good luck !!!!
 

DagorFunk

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
29
I'm only playing Emperor but building the Great Library helped me tremedously in terms of techs. I got 5 techs instantly and a couple of more freebies later on. By this point I was pulling in enough money to be able to research techs of my own and eventually I pulled ahead of everyone else. Now its 1950AD and I'm on the verge of getting a victory by conquest. This is on a small btw, I imagine it becomes tougher on a larger map.
 

Sublime

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 6, 2002
Messages
5
On Diety, 600BC is WAY too late to start your first war. You need to get to the AI while it is in expansionist mode. Even with archers you can take a fairly strong early power down to 3 or 4 cities. The key is starting the attack at 2500-2000BC. Once you pound them down to 3 or 4 cities even if they have more units then you they will pay you for peace - and this comes in the form of catching you up on techs. Also, I never research my own tech. Put all of your resources into buying the techs required for either archers or swordsman, then into producing them. Get temples in every new city ASAP or it will flip back to the original owner. Don't even worry about defending your cities much - leave 1 or 2 archers near them and attack all incoming enemies rather then defending. Once you get this first treaty, immediately attack a second AI. I have found that pressing 2 AI's into submission will usually place me on par in both size and techs with the AI. Next step, pay everything you have to to get the very top tech - then sell it to everyone else. At this point you are in position to play the game as you see fit, going for any of the victory types. Just make sure you keep enough units around that the AI you dominated stays scared, and enough culture producing improvements that none of the cities flip back. The key is to strike early and strike hard.

-Sublime
 

vanollefen

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2002
Messages
16
where do you get units to attack at 2500 BC. I've just barely built my second city by then. I can see the need to slow them down, since my biggest problem at Diety is getting hemmed in and having all the other civs way bigger than me.
 

Sublime

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 6, 2002
Messages
5
Well, the reason you have no units to attack with at 2500BC is because you've been busy building settlers. I differ from many on this opinion, but I think building settlers is a complete waste of time on diety level - UNLESS there is a spot very near your capital with absolutely huge food production that you can put a second city on very quickly. What I usually do is irrigate a couple of high food squares, then put mines / roads on every other square near my capital. While doing this, the first thing I build is a granary (assuming you have pottery) if not, a barracks or a warrior. The key is to get a granary and a barracks up very very early - you can pop rush them if needed. Once they are up STOP pop rushing and don't build any workers or settlers. With a granary and a couple high food production squares your city will be to size 8-12ish by 3000BC or earlier and with the mines your worker has been creating you should be building an archer every 2 turns. You should also be doing well on tech with the money you are making from roads - buying tech that is, I always have my science on 0%. At this point you have no problem making the 3-4 archers it takes to take the nearest AI city, and you'll have more archers coming very quickly to take the next one. Once your city hits size 12, alternate 2 or 3 archers to 1 worker so you aren't wasting the growth and so you can get a 2nd city functioning just like the capital. One thing I left out that can be pretty important - you probably want to pop rush a temple in there too so you can keep at least closeby the AI on culture. By the time your city starts getting this large you'll need to put a lot of money into happiness rather then buying tech, but thats not a problem because you will have soon conquered the nearest civ and demanded all of their money and tech for free. The AI expands so rapidly that there really is no point in expanding via settlers, just take the AI's hard earned cities the easy way.
-Sublime
 

Borodin

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
8
Location
Sydney
I build 2 cities, three max and then build aggressive units (i like babylonians with bowman uu). Send bowman after enemy settlers and attack the city as soon as it is formed. Cheaper than building settlers and you maintain military strength.

Try it. You'll like it. This works on Regent & Deity level.:king:
 

Darkhosis

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
4
Originally posted by Sublime
On Diety, 600BC is WAY too late to start your first war. You need to get to the AI while it is in expansionist mode. Even with archers you can take a fairly strong early power down to 3 or 4 cities. The key is starting the attack at 2500-2000BC. Once you pound them down to 3 or 4 cities even if they have more units then you they will pay you for peace - and this comes in the form of catching you up on techs. Also, I never research my own tech. Put all of your resources into buying the techs required for either archers or swordsman, then into producing them. Get temples in every new city ASAP or it will flip back to the original owner. Don't even worry about defending your cities much - leave 1 or 2 archers near them and attack all incoming enemies rather then defending. Once you get this first treaty, immediately attack a second AI. I have found that pressing 2 AI's into submission will usually place me on par in both size and techs with the AI. Next step, pay everything you have to to get the very top tech - then sell it to everyone else. At this point you are in position to play the game as you see fit, going for any of the victory types. Just make sure you keep enough units around that the AI you dominated stays scared, and enough culture producing improvements that none of the cities flip back. The key is to strike early and strike hard.

-Sublime

I don't get it, why must one play a military strategy to win on Diety level? Is this just for the "Huge" and "Large" maps? I've won deity multiple times on Tiny, Small, and Medium maps and never once have I had to declare war.

The best way to win the Emperor & Diety difficulty levels is by researching directly towards Monarchy, trade Monarchy for all the earlier techs, then move your treasury slider to 100%. Around the advent of Replaceable Parts or perhaps a bit earlier, you shift back into full scientific research. By this time you'll have had enough money to purchase Universities, Libraries, etc., in all of your cities so you'll be cranking out the techs once every 4 turns, if you were smart and saved up 10,000+ gold in your treasury (I usually make well over 500 a turn) then you can just move your slider to where it'll take 4 turns and not have to worry about the gold loss. If a computer opponent actually dares to challenge your economic powerhouse, then you can simply bribe all the other computer players to attack him/her. I've been successful by just keeping a defensive contingent of 3 of the best units in each of my cities, don't need offensive power.

I've never failed to win a space victory this way, with the earliest one taking place in the mid 1500's. The score isn't as high as it would be with a domination or conquest victory, but it's the easiest way to win.

ed: in fact, just won a diety game last night as the egyptians, normal size map pangea, with space launch approx. 1560 ad and I never once attacked a computer opponent. trading resources and buying techs for 200 gold makes it very easy (especially when you make over 200 a turn!).
 

Borodin

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
8
Location
Sydney
Great to see that you can win on Deity without military strategy. I want to try this next time I play. How many cities do you create? Is five cities enough for a standard size map ?
 

ERIKK

multiplayer
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Messages
1,420
Location
Netherlands
The difference between Emperor and Deity difficulty

I normally win on Emperor difficulty but always fail on Deity level. I play huge map, 16 civs and pangea, large water. Now, the AI neightbouring civ usually builds 5 spearman and starts wandering around with those guys (on barb (group-)hunt I guess). By that time you can only have build 2 or 3 archers. The AI has 3 cities by then. What do you do? How do you beat them?

Also; has anybody noticed that you get no nice stuff from the huts on deity level (as exp. Civ)? I never ever got a settler on Deity!

ERIKK :D
 

Terminator

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2
In the Opening Game (Despotism) the following are key for Emperor and Deity level


= Under despotism, build graneries in high food production cities and Rush Rush Rush production (see discussion on another thread on forced labor rushing production)

= Expansion is the name of the game early on. At first, you need two kinds of cities: those with graneries pumping out settlers and workers, and a few with barracks producing veteran spearmen to defend your new cities. After you have expanded to the limits that land and/or Corrption will allow, start thinking about building offensive units like Horseman and Swordsmen.

= First build three of four narmal warriors and search out the map to see the lay of the land and find other ci vs to trade adnacements. After the map is revealed, keep your warriors scouting around for barbrian huts. The money and goodies are good, but the combat experience is even better. Later, Build veteran units with barracks, when they become elite, fortify them in cities and send out new veteran units to become elite.

= Just Say No to Wonders. BasicallyAthey are a big waste of otherwise expansion and culture building potential. Pyramids et al are nice, but if you can build the city improvement, like barracks, granery, etc its a poor use of critical resources.

If you really feel that a cetain wonder is crucial, then go for that one and that one only.

= Consider very early wars of aggression against troublesome Civs on your continent like the Americans and the Romans. I'm talking archers and spearmen times. You will find that the AI civs tend to garrison cities with hapless warriors early on. Easy pickings. Its not neccesary to totally wipe them out right away, but definately neuter them. Anyway, attacking them will get their land, resources, their workers, remove them from competion, and you will eventually get a Great Leader or even two.

=Research or trade for the Weel and Iron working to see where the horses and Iron are. Get them. Try to monopolies iron, as a Civ without it can not build Swordman (and later Pikeman and Knights). Get mathamatics for the Catapult.

= Forbidden Palace should be built as soon as needed. Corruption will destroy you (but you can temporarily get around that by forced labor techniques). Make your empire in a figure eight configuration, with your palace and the Forbidden Palace in the center of each hub.

=Build Heroic Epic

When Elite units win a battle, they have chance of creating a Great Leader, so let them be Glory Hogs and use them to pick on the battle field weak and crippled. Its not heroic, but its good strategy.

Great Leaders are, well, great. They can rush great projects that otherwise take forever, like the Forbidden Palace (Should be Called the Takes Forever Palace). Its tempting to want to use that leader immediately to rush a Wonder but don't. When you get a Great Leader, immediately make an army and win a battle. Then you can build the Heroic Epic. Once you have it, the chance of a great leader arising greately increases and this affect last thoughout the whole game.

Armies truely kick ass. The only thing that can beat at the same tech level one is another army. Make your army consist of offensive units only and use them for attack. Stack the army with defensive spearmen.

= Trade technologies for technologies and resources for resources, when possible. Consider trading your advancements for gold. Wipe out or ignore reluctant or demanding trading partners, like the Romans and the Iroqois. Do not break trade agreements for temporary gain. The AI can be vindictive and rightfully so.

=Watch your reputation

The designers at Fraxis appear to have headed Machiavellie's observation that harm should be done all at once and in such a matter that the harmed will be unable to seek revenge. M also noted that many small gifts (1 gp per turn) are greater apreciated than one large one (20gp). In short, do not go to war for limited gains, but rather crush your opponent's ability to retaliate and do it fast (ten turns). One gigantic bashing followed by token gestures (1 gp per turn) will be forgiven sooner than countless insults and injuries and a lump sum of gold.

= War tips:

Stack units into groups. A few defensive, and a bunch of offensive. Bring along spearmen for garrison duty. You'll need only two of these groupings for early despotism era warfare.

Neuter the Enemey. Pillage all roads around the capitol and leave it, then Conquer it last. If you take the capitol, a new one will pop up in another city. A civ without a connected capitol is headless and easy pickings.

= seriously consider the advantages of a religious civiliation, Temples are easy to build (thats happiness and Culture), and no period of Anarchy, which basically translates as the Civ II Statue of Liberty. Later, Cathedrals are easier to build that Colloseums. Sweet.
 

WUM

the Magnificent
Joined
Apr 6, 2001
Messages
355
Location
Holland
How the **** can you buy techs for 200 gold?

No matter how good my reputation, i am hardly ever allowed to buy anothers civ´s latest tech. No matter what i pay (all my cities, gold, etc).

Because of this frustrating stuff, i got used to researching republic fast, building libraries and stuff, not going to war (reputation) and then putting research on 90% and lux on 10%. I sell my techs to all other civ´s in the same turn (for gold, other early techs i skipped and for communications). I make hundreds of gold per turn. I research a tech every 4 turns. So after 20 turns, when the AI get their money available again, i sell them new techs for all their gold. My tech-lead grows, my treasure grows to, and in the end i win...

I tried other approaches, but next to an early war i just can´t make it a succes.
 

Darkhosis

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
4
Originally posted by Borodin
Great to see that you can win on Deity without military strategy. I want to try this next time I play. How many cities do you create? Is five cities enough for a standard size map ?
5 cities wouldn't even be close for a standard size map. My territory is generally about the same or a slight bit more as the average computer on tiny and small maps, and maybe a slight bit less on a normal size map. This is where I'm thinking that the military strategy that so many people advocate might be necessary - if you're playing on a large or huge map the computer will probably out-expand you quite a bit. On tiny, small, and normal it is easy to keep up though.
I just pump out settlers for a long time, don't even bother trying to finish wonders ahead of them (waste of time), and use my main city as a warrior/spearman farm after it puts out a few settlers. None of my other cities produce military units (they're devoted exclusively to settlers and temples), my main city spits out a Spearman every 3 turns or so and that is what I move to them to keep them happy (and for defense). Remember, the computer thinks your military is strong on the basis of numbers, not on if they're Warriors or Pikemen.

Just make sure you restart until your opening city is next to a cow resource. :p
 

Darkhosis

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
4
Originally posted by WUM
How the **** can you buy techs for 200 gold?

No matter how good my reputation, i am hardly ever allowed to buy anothers civ´s latest tech. No matter what i pay (all my cities, gold, etc).

Because of this frustrating stuff, i got used to researching republic fast, building libraries and stuff, not going to war (reputation) and then putting research on 90% and lux on 10%. I sell my techs to all other civ´s in the same turn (for gold, other early techs i skipped and for communications). I make hundreds of gold per turn. I research a tech every 4 turns. So after 20 turns, when the AI get their money available again, i sell them new techs for all their gold. My tech-lead grows, my treasure grows to, and in the end i win...

I tried other approaches, but next to an early war i just can´t make it a succes.
Simple, you don't buy the latest techs. You wait until they're 2 or 3 or 4 techs past the one you want to buy (usually does not take long in a diety game), and then you buy it for 200 gold. You never buy one of the latest techs, there's really no reason to do so. If you're intent on building a wonder associated with it, then have a Palace building in one of your other cities and then buy that tech from the computer 10 turns later.

It's quite easy to take over the tech lead and expand on it later in the game after you've bought improvements for all your cities with all the money you make from 100% treasury.

I've won probably about 10 games on diety level and I think I've only aggressively attacked a computer in one of those. Sometimes you get a computer player attacking you (although it's rare if you have trade agreements with them) but they end up getting annihilated since you have the cash to buy off all the other computers.
 

Darkhosis

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 8, 2002
Messages
4
Originally posted by Terminator
In the Opening Game (Despotism) the following are key for Emperor and Deity level


= Under despotism, build graneries in high food production cities and Rush Rush Rush production (see discussion on another thread on forced labor rushing production)
I never build granaries or rush production under despotism, it's far too easy to get to Monarchy and buy it with gold.

= Expansion is the name of the game early on. At first, you need two kinds of cities: those with graneries pumping out settlers and workers, and a few with barracks producing veteran spearmen to defend your new cities. After you have expanded to the limits that land and/or Corrption will allow, start thinking about building offensive units like Horseman and Swordsmen.

Yes, expansion is the key of the early game... but I disagree that you need most of your cities producing granaries or spearman. You need one or two highly productive cities spitting out the Spearman to defend your newest cities, the rest should be building settlers - but honestly, I've never had a problem with my Settlers being slowed by food production, it's always the shields (thus granary wouldn't help any, just make it more of a headache with civil disorder).

= First build three of four narmal warriors and search out the map to see the lay of the land and find other ci vs to trade adnacements. After the map is revealed, keep your warriors scouting around for barbrian huts. The money and goodies are good, but the combat experience is even better. Later, Build veteran units with barracks, when they become elite, fortify them in cities and send out new veteran units to become elite.

Yeah, this is common sense. Do it on all difficulty levels. :p
= Just Say No to Wonders. BasicallyAthey are a big waste of otherwise expansion and culture building potential. Pyramids et al are nice, but if you can build the city improvement, like barracks, granery, etc its a poor use of critical resources.

If you really feel that a cetain wonder is crucial, then go for that one and that one only.

I agree for at the start anyway. I never bother with any of the wonders til the modern age, after which I'm usually successful in building all of them (hoover dam, suffrage, etc)
= Consider very early wars of aggression against troublesome Civs on your continent like the Americans and the Romans. I'm talking archers and spearmen times. You will find that the AI civs tend to garrison cities with hapless warriors early on. Easy pickings. Its not neccesary to totally wipe them out right away, but definately neuter them. Anyway, attacking them will get their land, resources, their workers, remove them from competion, and you will eventually get a Great Leader or even two.

But it also makes you waste time building the military units to take them out. I've never won a game on diety using a military strategy, but that might be mostly because I've never bothered. No reason to.

=Research or trade for the Weel and Iron working to see where the horses and Iron are. Get them. Try to monopolies iron, as a Civ without it can not build Swordman (and later Pikeman and Knights). Get mathamatics for the Catapult.

I just get these when the computer sells them to me for cheap, don't bother with it otherwise. You'd have to have a really unlucky starting position to not have any iron or horses on a tiny/small/normal map with moderate expansion. Horses are rather unimportant to me anyway except as an added resource to trade the computer for techs.
= Forbidden Palace should be built as soon as needed. Corruption will destroy you (but you can temporarily get around that by forced labor techniques). Make your empire in a figure eight configuration, with your palace and the Forbidden Palace in the center of each hub.

Agreed, I always start building the Forbidden Palace very early.. but you should do this for all difficulty levels. :p

=Build Heroic Epic

When Elite units win a battle, they have chance of creating a Great Leader, so let them be Glory Hogs and use them to pick on the battle field weak and crippled. Its not heroic, but its good strategy.

Great Leaders are, well, great. They can rush great projects that otherwise take forever, like the Forbidden Palace (Should be Called the Takes Forever Palace). Its tempting to want to use that leader immediately to rush a Wonder but don't. When you get a Great Leader, immediately make an army and win a battle. Then you can build the Heroic Epic. Once you have it, the chance of a great leader arising greately increases and this affect last thoughout the whole game.

Armies truely kick ass. The only thing that can beat at the same tech level one is another army. Make your army consist of offensive units only and use them for attack. Stack the army with defensive spearmen.

Only thing I've found armies useful for is speeding up Palace production, otherwise they seem pretty useless. You don't need to speed up the later wonders, you can beat the computer to them easy. And personally I don't want to waste time trying to generate a leader early in the game when it's more important that my cities be spitting out settlers and temples and such. I've never built a Heroic Epic in a game on diety level, mainly because I've never had a great leader. That's right, I've never generated a leader in a Diety game, despite winning about 10 of 'em, lol.
= Trade technologies for technologies and resources for resources, when possible. Consider trading your advancements for gold. Wipe out or ignore reluctant or demanding trading partners, like the Romans and the Iroqois. Do not break trade agreements for temporary gain. The AI can be vindictive and rightfully so.

I trade resources for techs or luxuries, and techs for gold or luxuries generally. Don't trade for other resources unless I'm near the end game and really, really need it for the space race.

=Watch your reputation

The designers at Fraxis appear to have headed Machiavellie's observation that harm should be done all at once and in such a matter that the harmed will be unable to seek revenge. M also noted that many small gifts (1 gp per turn) are greater apreciated than one large one (20gp). In short, do not go to war for limited gains, but rather crush your opponent's ability to retaliate and do it fast (ten turns). One gigantic bashing followed by token gestures (1 gp per turn) will be forgiven sooner than countless insults and injuries and a lump sum of gold.

I usually try to have trade agreements open with all the computer players at once, rarely have I had war declared on me this way. When I do, I can call in all my other buddies to smash him. 2 or 3 good units defending all your cities will be totally sufficient..
= War tips:

Stack units into groups. A few defensive, and a bunch of offensive. Bring along spearmen for garrison duty. You'll need only two of these groupings for early despotism era warfare.

I just have a few defensive in my cities, that's it. :p

Neuter the Enemey. Pillage all roads around the capitol and leave it, then Conquer it last. If you take the capitol, a new one will pop up in another city. A civ without a connected capitol is headless and easy pickings.

Never bother. I've won a few domination/conquest games but it's not on Diety level, on emperor level. I usually just leave the terrain enhancements be, because I want them still there when I take their cities. Screw having to use my own workers. :p

= seriously consider the advantages of a religious civiliation, Temples are easy to build (thats happiness and Culture), and no period of Anarchy, which basically translates as the Civ II Statue of Liberty. Later, Cathedrals are easier to build that Colloseums. Sweet.
Yes, religious is my favorite. I usually play as the Egyptians.

I guess it's nice to see that there are multiple methods to winning on diety level. Before I first visited this board about a week ago I wouldn't have even considered trying to militarily beat the computer on diety, seemed pointless to me. Now it seems like 95% of the ppl on here think that is the only way to win.
 

jjdeity

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
1
Here are a few things I did in deity, quite successful so far. In deity, I saw the only way to win is domination. You will have to be content to be the backward nation most of the time.

* Don't build much, you have to attack the weak guys to get cities early on.
* You don't invest in science, ever, since AI is way ahead of you. I pick fight with the scientifically advanced nations. Right before the attacks, I sell a few cities to "update" my technologies. You get them right back in the next run. You might have to raze your own city, but it can be rebuilt.
* You need to use MP very effectively. You pick your friends right and everyone will be fighting against your ememy. To break a MP, try to invoke you fight. Many fall for it.
* Since you will be fighting a lot, you get some leaders. Important to have include Art of War, Leonado, and Pyramid. Nice to get JBach if you can. The intelligent agency is also good to invoke fights.
* The AI build stuff much faster than you think. This is how I crank up units: pick a site that is isolated, but has horse. build a few cities (it has to be isolated from Iron). Use the workers that I razed and build horsemens in one turn. Upgrade them immediately to Calvary - one worker for one calvary. I got a few of those each turn. Since I have leonado, my upgrade cost is low.
* Once you are in the modern time, use airport to transport units. This is important if you just got a city in the enemy territory.

Fight on!
 
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