Help please

[wazzbot]

Righty. Been a little obsessed with civ3 for the last couple of years. Think in my previous incarnation as a gamer I was probably sometimes beating it on warlord, but now I've moved up to monarch, where I'm consistently getting my a$$ handed to me, needing to get lucky just to be on an even footing at basically any point. Before I moved up, I was beating regent more than 50% of the time.

I've read a handful of things on here, some articles and threads, and implemented them; I've discovered some tricks for myself, as well as tried to be a lot more pernickety about decisions. I'll load up an autosave from time to time, but with the random seed preserved - I very much try to avoid taking advantage of new information either, but, rather, the learning process would seem way too lengthy if I can't correct a mistake for this game.

I tend to play with Persia or Sumeria, as I like scientific leaders. I used to go for a few early wonders but on this difficulty level don't usually bother until perhaps copernicus. I no longer rush for my first settler, but instead try to build up my capital to level 4, with a granary and barracks. I try to keep my cities close and packed, unless there are luxuries around. I try to balance my production and growth with micromanagement on my main cities, but sorta can't be bothered too much after 1000 years or so - is this a sticking point? I try to build up my defence and attack forces and try to attack when I feel like I have an advantage and the timing is right. When playing Persia, whose uu is immortals @ 4.2.1 instead of swordsman, i make sure to play a young world so there's more iron around. If not playing a scientific civ, I'll turn off the scientific leaders option. Where appropriate, I've also started pop-rushing, but by the sounds of it I'm not doing it enough - for whatever reason, I can't find the right sort of opportunities for it, or I'm doing it wrong or something. I try to keep my workers central, unless for the sakes of luxuries and resources and trading.

Relevant .sav included.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[Spoonwood]

I hardly ever pop rush.

 

[Spoonwood]

In general, you can use more workers and your city spacing seems quite wide. You have a fair amount of tiles within your cultural borders which you can't ever use, because of your wide city spacing.

I guess the space victory isn't enabled, because I can't seem to get F10 to work to see how many opponents exist. Suicide galleys/curraghs can help to get contacts earlier.

I don't recommend building colosseums or cathedrals, unless you really don't want to go to war, or playing for a 100k victory. I would only recommend temples in *some* cities for cultural expansions. But, doing so only for cultural exapnsion implies NO temples for Persia, only libraries for that purpose. Any use that coloseeums, cathedrals, or temples have becomes nullified once you can trade for all of the luxuries or enough of them. So, in general, it works out better to use the luxury slider and just build units or buildings for research or money.

You don't need spears in every city. In your border cities at most. And possibly even only those border cities you feel concerned about getting attacked.

O. K. here's your military:

You probably want AT LEAST a ratio of 3 offensive units to every defensive unit. You have pretty much the reverse of that, so they will attack you mostly, instead of you attacking them. Even if that means archers over pikeman, build offensive units. Also, you don't have a single catapult or trebuchet. Artillery type units make for your best friends! They cut down on losses by weakening most units you want to fight and make it easier for elites to win to generate a leader for an army. Also, try not to have a city produce artillery type units if it has barracks (unless playing as Korea and trying to/planning to generate leaders with their UU).

I wouldn't recommend using entertainers (except during Anarchy). Use the luxury slider instead.

With more workers, some forestry, and some nice chops, you could easily get more shields into your cities.

Also, The Inca landing on a mountain next to your city just makes for bad news. If you want to continue this game, I would make peace with them (just pay for it) focus on maybe putting up some universities and markets (but no more happiness buildings!), find the other continent, and get out some more workers, settlers, and artillery type units. Then go back at them when you have more of a "combined arms" attack with more trebuchets or cannons (you have a lot of desert and hills, so your probability of having saltpeter seems high enough) or even artillery proper.

 

[Spoonwood]

Oh... and I didn't see it before... you're a Despotism, but you know The Republic! Make peace and become a Republic. Your commerce will improve dramatically, at least after the GA finishes. Generally speaking, except maybe for waiting a turn or two when to say put out a worker or two so that your city(ies) don't starve during Anarchy, it works out best to revolt to The Repbulic as soon as you learn it, and to learn it ASAP.

 

[wazzbot]

Alright guys thanks for your help.

In general, you can use more workers and your city spacing seems quite wide. You have a fair amount of tiles within your cultural borders which you can't ever use, because of your wide city spacing.

I guess the space victory isn't enabled, because I can't seem to get F10 to work to see how many opponents exist. Suicide galleys/curraghs can help to get contacts earlier.

I don't recommend building colosseums or cathedrals, unless you really don't want to go to war, or playing for a 100k victory. I would only recommend temples in *some* cities for cultural expansions. But, doing so only for cultural exapnsion implies NO temples for Persia, only libraries for that purpose. Any use that coloseeums, cathedrals, or temples have becomes nullified once you can trade for all of the luxuries or enough of them. So, in general, it works out better to use the luxury slider and just build units or buildings for research or money.

You don't need spears in every city. In your border cities at most. And possibly even only those border cities you feel concerned about getting attacked.

O. K. here's your military:

View attachment 470561

You probably want AT LEAST a ratio of 3 offensive units to every defensive unit. You have pretty much the reverse of that, so they will attack you mostly, instead of you attacking them. Even if that means archers over pikeman, build offensive units. Also, you don't have a single catapult or trebuchet. Artillery type units make for your best friends! They cut down on losses by weakening most units you want to fight and make it easier for elites to win to generate a leader for an army. Also, try not to have a city produce artillery type units if it has barracks (unless playing as Korea and trying to/planning to generate leaders with their UU).

I wouldn't recommend using entertainers (except during Anarchy). Use the luxury slider instead.

With more workers, some forestry, and some nice chops, you could easily get more shields into your cities.

Also, The Inca landing on a mountain next to your city just makes for bad news. If you want to continue this game, I would make peace with them (just pay for it) focus on maybe putting up some universities and markets (but no more happiness buildings!), find the other continent, and get out some more workers, settlers, and artillery type units. Then go back at them when you have more of a "combined arms" attack with more trebuchets or cannons (you have a lot of desert and hills, so your probability of having saltpeter seems high enough) or even artillery proper.

Yeah I suppose the focus on defensive units is a hangup from when I preferred to hold out on easier levels and get to cavalry or tanks first.

I fought tooth and nail for that mountain. They had huge numbers and even generated a leader in the battles, I had to pile everything I had onto that mountain to kill the leader as well as retain it, and they just came back with huge numbers the next turn, which is when this is (i.e. me giving up).

I don't much like space victory, so yeah I have it turned off.

Using the luxury slider rather than colosseums & cathedrals seems like a good shout, thanks, I'll try that.

Nice chops? When you say forestry, do you mean building more forests? I've been chopping them down a lot for an early boost.

Oh... and I didn't see it before... you're a Despotism, but you know The Republic! Make peace and become a Republic. Your commerce will improve dramatically, at least after the GA finishes. Generally speaking, except maybe for waiting a turn or two when to say put out a worker or two so that your city(ies) don't starve during Anarchy, it works out best to revolt to The Repbulic as soon as you learn it, and to learn it ASAP.

I find republic difficult - if I have a big enough army to defend myself it costs too much. In this case, that was my plan - but I didn't have enough to get them to agree peace.

 

[Spoonwood]

Nice chops? When you say forestry, do you mean building more forests?

I mean planting forests and then chopping them for shields. You can only do this once for each square, unless you already harvested 10 shields from a square before.

I find republic difficult - if I have a big enough army to defend myself it costs too much.

Don't look at unit support so much, and instead look at your total commerce. Don't worry so much about paying for unit support. I've payed hundreds of gold in unit support before and still done alright. Also, Monarchy still works out better than Despotism. Finally, you only need to defend your borders.

You can pay gold per turn to the Inca for peace right now, can't you? I would do that.

 

[justanick]

I no longer rush for my first settler, but instead try to build up my capital to level 4, with a granary and barracks.

Personally i prefer to build settler before granary. In any case building granary and barracks in the same city seems like waste. Limit it to the essentials and for the capital that would be likely be the granary. A granary should support building settlers and workers, a barrack however should support building military which should then be done with some consequence.

I try to keep my cities close and packed, unless there are luxuries around.

The savegame does not look close and packed. After having hospitals having slightly below 20 tiles per metropolis is proper, before hospitals it is better to have around 13 tiles per city. Almost each tile is meant to be used.

I try to balance my production and growth with micromanagement on my main cities, but sorta can't be bothered too much after 1000 years or so - is this a sticking point?

Proper micromanagement in the first say 150 turns is somewhat essential. The savegame you supplied is from turn 194. Imo the first thing you need to learn is what happens until your goverment has changed to republic, something that should happen ASAP. First build settlers for something like 20 cities. Then build workers, around 1.5 per city. Building granaries can happen to the extent that it rather helps than hurts achieving those 2 goals. Then get to republik. Leaving despotism ASAP is crucial as despotism is a very poor government, republic however is one of the best governments, its over all performence is second to none.

When playing Persia, whose uu is immortals @ 4.2.1 instead of swordsman, i make sure to play a young world so there's more iron around.

I donnot believe there is a connection between the two. The total amount of irons stays about the same and at any available setting there are enough tiles to carry iron.

Where appropriate, I've also started pop-rushing, but by the sounds of it I'm not doing it enough - for whatever reason, I can't find the right sort of opportunities for it, or I'm doing it wrong or something.

Poprushing is almost never a good idea. For the sake of simplicity it may be best to simply never use that option.

Also, you don't have a single catapult or trebuchet. Artillery type units make for your best friends! They cut down on losses by weakening most units you want to fight and make it easier for elites to win to generate a leader for an army. Also, try not to have a city produce artillery type units if it has barracks (unless playing as Korea and trying to/planning to generate leaders with their UU).

Artillery is essential for any serios warfare. At monarch however it can be reasonable to skip them, especially if the efficient immortals that can be build instead.

 

[wazzbot]

I donnot believe there is a connection between the two. The total amount of irons stays about the same and at any available setting there are enough tiles to carry iron.

Poprushing is almost never a good idea. For the sake of simplicity it may be best to simply never use that option.

Are these accepted fact? Only I read them somewhere on this forum.

 

[wazzbot]

Don't look at unit support so much, and instead look at your total commerce. Don't worry so much about paying for unit support. I've payed hundreds of gold in unit support before and still done alright. Also, Monarchy still works out better than Despotism. Finally, you only need to defend your borders.

You can pay gold per turn to the Inca for peace right now, can't you? I would do that.

Nope, they wouldn't accept anything, iirc.

 

[justanick]

Nope, they wouldn't accept anything, iirc.

They do accept peace treaty for 22 gold and 1 gtp. You do of course need to have that kind of gold surpluss, so reduce research spending before starting negotiations.

 

[wazzbot]

They do accept peace treaty for 22 gold and 1 gtp. You do of course need to have that kind of gold surpluss, so reduce research spending before starting negotiations.

Well it felt like I couldn't get anything out of this game before that so I just gave up.

 

[Spoonwood]

Well it felt like I couldn't get anything out of this game before that so I just gave up.

Your game is still winnable (if you're still playing). But, in the future maybe make sure to double check if you can pay for something by lowering the science slider and seeing if you can pay gpt for something ("they will accept this deal"). People have won games from behind in the tech tree or playing catch up for a very long time. You never know, someone might feel inclined to pick up your game and win it.

 

[tjs282]

Are these accepted fact? Only I read them somewhere on this forum.

(AFAIK) World Age makes no difference at all to the number of each StratRes placed on a randomly-generated map; rather, this is directly calculated from the 'Appearance ratio' for that StratRes (as stored in the .biq file, and reprogrammable using the Editor), plus or minus an additional random fudge factor, and multiplied by the number of Civs placed (by you) on the map at the beginning of the game. So e.g. if you have the full complement of 8 civs (you + 7 rivals) on a Standard map, you can usually expect to see around 6 Iron-resources in total, somewhere in the world (less frequently 5 or 7, with 4 or 8 Irons being outlier-cases).

Of course, it can suck big-time if your UU needs Iron, and the map-generator initially assigns all the Iron-tiles to every other landmass(es) except yours, but that's just the luck of the draw. Even if that happens though, on every turn there's a chance (again, re-settable using the Editor) that any Iron currently hooked-up to a(n AICiv's) trade-network may get 'exhausted' in its current location and then '(re)discovered' somewhere else -- maybe in your backyard this time, provided you have some Hills or Mountains available.

Admittedly, a younger map might make it more likely that you have large tracts of Iron-appropriate territory within/near your borders, and hence a greater chance of snagging one than if you were on/near a large expanse of flatland. OTOH, lots of highlands would likely also mean that you have fewer food-rich tiles...

 

[wazzbot]

Thanks for your help guys

 

[Spoonwood]

Congrats on your victory wazzbot!

I have two recommendations:

1. Try to have the ability to use all of the tiles in your core. With respect to your game, note the railroaded and unimproved tile in between Sidon and Persepolis. If you had planted a city there, you could have used that tile (and probably used more tiles earlier). You also have quite a few open tiles near Bactra. That's still probably not too corrupt lands, so you probably would have a more powerful game if you had some city out on one of those open tiles:

2. It seems like you did a mostly modern age conquest. That's fine. But, for an earlier conquest, and a higher score (without playing for a histographic victory), you might want to consider the use of combat settlers once you have artillery proper. I mean, I assume here that you didn't use them? Moonsinger wrote a fairly good article on this a while back. Some of that I wouldn't recommend like abandoning the outpost city, but putting a city near an enemies and then using artillery proper with their extra range to take out a city can work out very well.

 

[wazzbot]

Right, where do I go from here / any feedback thus far? Could have tried to take out America when I had the chance but felt it would have been overstretching - I don't seem to be able to find the balance.

Been focussing a lot more on micromanaging my main cities, to somewhat good effect I think, but I must still be missing something, I feel.

 

[Spoonwood]

Do you have any saves from the ancient age?

1. You can use more workers to develop your tiles.

2. Your capital can use 3 more tiles with more growth. Get it to grow.

3. Though exceptions exist, you probably don't have to worry about. DO NOT BUILD COLOSSEUMS EVER. You put 120 shields into them in at least three cities. That's 360 shields. That's the same amount of shields for 12 horseman or 12 immortals, or if not playing as Persia, 9 medieval infantry.

4. Unless you plan on building Wall Street, don't build both banks and universities. And don't build more than 5 banks and universities. If you want to do research build universities. If you want to purchase tech and stock up on gold build banks.

5. Look at the tiles between Bactra and Gordium.

I count 7 tiles near your core within your cultural borders that cannot get used by any city ever! And two of them are floodplains for fast growth and some nice commerce! You would have an easier go of it if you put a city there as you would have more commerce and production overall. In general, you want your tiles within your cultural borders to have the ability to get used by some city at some point in the game, if not before hospitals also. Don't worry about any exceptions to this rule at this point in time. Make sure your cities can use every single tile.

6. I don't understand your research choices. Are you playing for a 20k? If not, then only research techs that you need and can use. Don't go with the optional path up to Free Artistry.

7. Train more artillery type units. Catapults, trebuchets, cannons, and later artillery proper. Have more artillery instead of so many spears.

8. You have 19 spears and 10 immortals.

You want probably at least a 3 to 1 ratio of offensive units to defensive units. That's more like 30 immortals and 10 spears. And maybe 10 to 15 trebuchets.

9. I don't understand why you are building Shakespeare's Theater. Do you want a 20k victory? If not, then don't build that. You put 450 shields into it to complete Shakespear's Theater, and that's the same cost as about 5.6 cavalry or 6.4 knights. Why not have some cavalry or knights sooner?

In general, build only what can help you towards your desired victory condition, train more workers, use all the tiles that you can, and train more artillery type units.

Also... probably...

10. Don't build temples as Persia, unless you want a 100k victory or in your 20k city (and I don't think you want either). Only build libraries as Persia. I counted 19 temples. 12 of those in cities with libraries. That's 720 shields in the cities with libraries. That's more than 10 knights, or 24 horseman or immortals, or 24 trebuchets. 24 trebuchets plus some defensive units and a few offensive units like immortals or medieval infantry can probably capture a city every 4 turns or so before rifles. Heck, such a stack can probably even do fairly well against rifles.

 

[Spoonwood]

General tip to improve play:

I got this idea from the old Master of Orion manual, and it has helped to improve my play. On any particular turn you think important, or on every single turn, start in your capital city and cycle through your cities to see if you can find a better tile arrangement (maybe CivAssist II can get used to a similar effect?). Better still, do that BEFORE moving your workers and plan your worker moves based on what you can figure out from cycling through your cities.

If cycling through your cities on every single turn sounds like too much time for your liking, just do so on turns you think important. Or do so for the first 50 turns in a game.

 

[wazzbot]

Do you have any saves from the ancient age?

1. You can use more workers to develop your tiles.

2. Your capital can use 3 more tiles with more growth. Get it to grow.

3. Though exceptions exist, you probably don't have to worry about. DO NOT BUILD COLOSSEUMS EVER. You put 120 shields into them in at least three cities. That's 360 shields. That's the same amount of shields for 12 horseman or 12 immortals, or if not playing as Persia, 9 medieval infantry.

4. Unless you plan on building Wall Street, don't build both banks and universities. And don't build more than 5 banks and universities. If you want to do research build universities. If you want to purchase tech and stock up on gold build banks.

5. Look at the tiles between Bactra and Gordium.

View attachment 471424

I count 7 tiles near your core within your cultural borders that cannot get used by any city ever! And two of them are floodplains for fast growth and some nice commerce! You would have an easier go of it if you put a city there as you would have more commerce and production overall. In general, you want your tiles within your cultural borders to have the ability to get used by some city at some point in the game, if not before hospitals also. Don't worry about any exceptions to this rule at this point in time. Make sure your cities can use every single tile.

6. I don't understand your research choices. Are you playing for a 20k? If not, then only research techs that you need and can use. Don't go with the optional path up to Free Artistry.

7. Train more artillery type units. Catapults, trebuchets, cannons, and later artillery proper. Have more artillery instead of so many spears.

8. You have 19 spears and 10 immortals.

View attachment 471425

You want probably at least a 3 to 1 ratio of offensive units to defensive units. That's more like 30 immortals and 10 spears. And maybe 10 to 15 trebuchets.

9. I don't understand why you are building Shakespeare's Theater. Do you want a 20k victory? If not, then don't build that. You put 450 shields into it to complete Shakespear's Theater, and that's the same cost as about 5.6 cavalry or 6.4 knights. Why not have some cavalry or knights sooner?

In general, build only what can help you towards your desired victory condition, train more workers, use all the tiles that you can, and train more artillery type units.

Also... probably...

10. Don't build temples as Persia, unless you want a 100k victory or in your 20k city (and I don't think you want either). Only build libraries as Persia. I counted 19 temples. 12 of those in cities with libraries. That's 720 shields in the cities with libraries. That's more than 10 knights, or 24 horseman or immortals, or 24 trebuchets. 24 trebuchets plus some defensive units and a few offensive units like immortals or medieval infantry can probably capture a city every 4 turns or so before rifles. Heck, such a stack can probably even do fairly well against rifles.

No saves - can remember in the future.

1. Noted.

2. I decided to sacrifice growth in this particular case in order to build a wonder - Newtons' U, rather than shakespeare, just felt like I needed to pre-build.

3. I don't understand. You say not to build temples or colliseums; sometimes they're necessary for the sakes of either or both making a citizen happy, or expanding cultural borders, no?

4. So stop at marketplaces? You're saying to focus on finance or science? Isn't there a balance, i.e. having highly profitable cities produce money allows you to spend more on science. I could see a strategy whereby you wouldn't have barracks and banks plus, how is that?

5. Yes that was definitely a mistake, rectified.

6. Normally don't go for free artistry, there was a logic this time, to do with trade with Maya.

7&8. Noted, thanks, still finding it hard to go with attack.

9. See 2 & 6, I managed to switch to Newtons U @ the last minute and pipped Maya to it. They do stack, right - Newton and Copernicus.

I don't set out for any particular desired victory condition until later on, and it almost always ends up being domination - never managed a diplomatic.

 

[Spoonwood]

You say not to build temples or colliseums; sometimes they're necessary for the sakes of either or both making a citizen happy, or expanding cultural borders, no?

No to the first. You can raise the luxury slider or use a scientist or tax collector. To the second, not as Persia. Libraries cost less as a scientific tribe such as Persia and expand cultural borders fine.

So stop at marketplaces? You're saying to focus on finance or science? Isn't there a balance, i.e. having highly profitable cities produce money allows you to spend more on science. I could see a strategy whereby you wouldn't have barracks and banks plus, how is that?

Yes, stop at marketplaces if doing research. Sell tech for gold per turn or their lump sums. Banks don't do you much good with the science slider at maximum. Those buildings only multiply your output of science or taxes. 90% of 0 is still 0. Yes, it's possible to have a strategy without barracks and banks (if the AI doesn't attack you). Fast research games can work that way. You just sell tech for gpt or their lump sums and keep on researching.

You might build 5 banks and 5 stock exchanges for Wall Street, if you keep 1000 gold around in your treasury. But, no more than that, and only if you find it valuable to spend something like 2200 shields on buildings instead of units or factories/coal plants. It probably isn't. It probably works better to build units or buildings to enhance your production. So, I would forget banks in any game that you plan to research a lot in future. Unless, you really can justify it by having a lower science slider while still doing research. That rarely to never works as the case.

They do stack, right - Newton and Copernicus.

They both increase your science output by the same amount, I think. They both can become tourist attractions, if I recall correctly.