Help Understanding Warfare

[DaveD22]

As I continue to learn the ins and outs of Civ 7, I have a question about waging war.

Initial details: Sovereign difficulty, Augustus/Egypt = Me, Jose/Mississippi = AI opponent in question. I have played Civ at least semi-successfully since Civ 2 so I’m not new to Civ warfare. I can wage war in 5 and 6 (one unit/hex versions) just fine.

So Jose is on my border and just had his next to the last city taken by Xerxes on the other side. I’m spamming extra vision with scouts on Jose’s border so I see he has 3 units left visible. I’ve wanted his capital for a while so I’ve prepared for this moment. I have 8-9 units of relatively equal strength to his on one side of his Cap, a commander holding 4 more (plus one spare unit) on the other side.

I advance with the 8-9 unit front. Out come three chariots and two flame archers in defense. Fair enough. He had extra units I didn’t see. But I prepared for this too. As soon as those units are occupied with my 8-9 in a war of attrition, I move in with my flanking commander and his units to attack the fortified districts. But two turns later, here come four MORE defenders pouring into those districts in addition to his other front. I can take part of the city but not all.

Again, fair enough. I use some of my front-side force to wipe out his initial defenders, though it’s a bit of attrition because of terrain and movement. I lose as many units as I kill but I still have a decent force left (albeit in the red) to try again. I back off with my flanking force too, having left two visible defenders behind relatively unscathed because of the walls.

Recapping: his front force is gone. He has two district defenders. I have an army healing in front and a full commander healing in back.

As my front army heals, I reinforce it. I can create a chariot every 3 turns in my capital. That at least equals or exceeds his production I imagine because my cap is built for production. I also out-produce him in gold 2-1, so I’m buying some ballistas to knock down those districts. A few turns later, I’ve healed and redone my army, maybe better than before.

I take the same approach. My front army advances. This time it’s only chariots in defense, but they charge. Five of them. That’s more than twice the defenders he had a few turns ago. (And keep in mind I out-gold him for buying and he can’t possibly be churning out chariots much faster than I am.)

So fine. Another war of attrition up front. I deploy my army on the back side to flank him and…four more units appear.

Long story short, I tried a third time too. Same thing. Eventually I spent most of the ancient age experimenting, trying to win this war. He just kept spawning.

I’m not asking whether the AI gets free spawns. Obviously it does. I’m not even really complaining about it. A challenge is a challenge. Here’s my question after grinding myself into an endless war of attrition to prove a point:

Has anyone figured out the *parameters* of the AI “cheat” spawns? Is there a known limit on how many units they’ll spawn, or how often the spawn will trigger? After a while I seemed to get 9 opposing units, at least six of which were new, with each attack. Also—and I know this would be hard to answer—did my tactic of flanking the AI with a second army then cause two spawns?

Any help understanding how the game works in this vein would be helpful.

 

[MutilationWave]

I'm not exactly sure how it works and I haven't played Sovereign. That being said, I have seen a capital on Deity pump five units out in a single turn, all of which were immediately able to move and attack. This is likely similar on Sovereign. I'll split this advice between tactical and strategic choices.

My first piece of tactical advice would be to set up for counterattacks. A choke point of one or two tiles between mountains is great, but a minor river works well too. In these cases I would set my strongest melee units in front, fortified, with ranged behind. Obviously have at least one commander involved. The best is a navigable river. Here you can mass ranged units on your side of the river, and wreck your opponents when they go for a swim.

Secondly, you need to get good with tactical packing and unpacking with commanders. Apologies if you already have practiced this, but it's best to take the Initiative promotion first. By using packing carefully, you can usually have your melee units take the hits in favorable terrain, while dropping your ranged units into places they can fire from without getting hit back much or at all. It costs one movement to pack and zero movement to unpack. If a ranged unit can't attack during a turn, sometimes it's best to pack them up so they'll have more movement the next turn. With melee units I tend to let them take hits from melee while attacking ranged. This improves their survivability while your ranged units get more shots in. If you have your melee unit in a good defensive tile though, you could for example attack into a poor tile like a minor river, but without killing the unit so you retain your defensive spot. Then finish them off with ranged.

Sometimes a calculated retreat is good to wear your enemies down. I take Maneuverability promotion second, which puts more tactical decisions at your disposal, such as having your commander providing bonuses and getting experience with each ranged unit as they fire, then ending the turn supporting your front line. If you've used a fighting retreat, you can then get your units back to your objective much faster with Maneuverability. One more little tip here is that there is a hidden fifth slot in army commanders for a civilian unit, ideally a scout. This allows your commander to retain its movement (and Maneuverability) bonus while unpacking all your fighting force. Another thing is that while it's great to pack a unit in the commander to get them out of a bad situation, you should unpack them somewhere safe to heal. They will not heal while packed if the commander takes any action at all. Again, Maneuverability is key again here to get the commander back in range of your active units.

More on promotions - go down the Initiative tree on one side to the bottom (I usually take the ranged side). Some people skip the Maneuverability promotion, because the Order commendation you can take by reaching the bottom of any tree is so powerful. No other commendation should be chosen before it. I wish it was more even, but Order is just that good.

On to strategy. What seems to happen, is the opponent will get "exhausted" and not create many units for two or three turns sometimes. This is your chance to heal, or even better to move on your objective with a counterattack. This is another thing making Maneuverability great, you can better set up your positioning and if you're close enough, start pressing the attack same turn.

A couple more points-
Do not ignore the commander's focus fire ability. It adds +2 combat strength to every unit firing with it. There is another ability that does the same for melee units, but I don't tend to use this much at all. Be aware that either ability will end the turn of the commander no matter how much movement they have remaining.

If possible, take your opponent's ranged units down first, while keeping your melee units in good defensive tiles. Fortify them if you can. You won't take extra damage from being caught creating fortifications, and you can just cancel the action the next turn if your plans change.

As far as your situation, fighting Mississippians is brutal. Burning Arrows are the best military unit in Antiquity by cost, and they eventually get the Atassa tradition for a further +4 combat strength. Your gold versus your opponent's does not seem to matter at all. They will just keep pumping out free units until they take that break I was talking about earlier. Finally, I do not think your flanking action with the commander caused them to create more units, but it may have hurt you by not having your commander bonuses on your other units while not getting experience from them either.

Please let me know if this helps or if you disagree. I was just fighting Mississippians in my current game and they are busted!

 

[Manpanzee]

The only true "cheat spawns" that I know of happen when an AI loses their capital. This will often trigger the appearance of a handful of new units, usually (but not always) roughly on top of the settlement that becomes the new capital.

There are some other bugs (or bug-adjacent mechanics) that let the AI do things human players can't. E.g., I think the AI may be able to both buy and produce new units into a surrounded district that already has units in it, where a human player is blocked from doing so unless they can clear out and make space for a new unit to come in.

But I am pretty sure that "cheat spawns" are not something that regularly happens outside of capital captures. Bear in mind that between purchasing and building, AI can potentially be adding two new units per turn, just using their baseline production and gold buffs.

There are some other mechanics to be aware of that can have the appearance of "cheat spawns". For example, I once had a city siege where more and more units kept walking up from a seemingly inexplicable place. After a while, I discovered the source: the AI city had a Barracks in its third ring, in a place I didn't have vision on, and all of their new units were just spawning in this Barracks.

 

[MutilationWave]

cheat spawns

Always love to see a pro weigh in, but I have to say I've seen these cheat spawns directly.

I was attacking an enemy capital in Antiquity from all directions- to the east where I had a forward settle, to the south where I'd sent a commander around, and to the north and west where I was attacking from the sea. I had full visibility of all their tiles, and during their turn I watched five new units spawn in and immediately move and attack.

 

[Krikkit1]

Always love to see a pro weigh in, but I have to say I've seen these cheat spawns directly.

I was attacking an enemy capital in Antiquity from all directions- to the east where I had a forward settle, to the south where I'd sent a commander around, and to the north and west where I was attacking from the sea. I had full visibility of all their tiles, and during their turn I watched five new units spawn in and immediately move and attack.

The AI capital seems to be the common thread there. Either in the process of losing (your scenario) or already lost (@Manpanzee)

 

[DaveD22]

Yup. It happened with the AI capital. An update to tie a bow on the thread.

The Story: We fought to a stalemate over that city through antiquity. I took some districts but never quite the whole thing. During the era switch he changed capitols, moving it out of the huge, wonder-filled metropolis to a small beachside settlement. That meant the extra units no longer spawned in or around the big city. Taking it was as easy as defeating the units I could see. And his new Cap wasn’t big enough to produce units (or, evidently, much spawning). So…after an entire age of pitched battle, defeating him took about 10 turns in the exploration age.

A Thought: I guess I wouldn’t mind any of this if the devs and the game were just TRANSPARENT. It isn’t hard. There doesn’t have to be this, “Gotcha!” sense of confusion, frustration, and bitterness.

Watch.

“When you attack the Capitol of an AI player, their entire armed forces will rally. They know it’s now or never to defend their homeland in a last stand. In addition to the units the AI already possesses they will [produce units at twice the normal rate or spawn 5-7 free units or insert whatever actually happens here]. Be prepared for a fierce fight for the central city!”

We’ve given a narrative explanation for the “cheat” and informed the player of its nature and limitations. Guess what? I don’t mind the mechanic at all if it’s explained like that, even if there’s some randomness involved! I just know that if I go for their Cap, I need to be prepared for the possibility of extra units. I can factor that into my plans and decisions. This is SO MUCH BETTER than me saying, “They have three units defending that city. I had better bring eight units to take it, just to be safe. This will be an easy win. Ooop! Now they spawned seven more. I am dead. Thank you for the emotional and strategic whiplash.”

We don’t HAVE to be enemies, devs. Most players who like the game will work with you and accept your decisions if you just share how things work so we’re all on the same page. We need to play the same game instead of one party playing the game the way it seems to be and the other playing a hidden game that overturns it without warning. That’s like studying hard to learn all the rules of chess only to find that your opponent can say, “Queen for a Day!” on move 30 and change all their pieces to unlimited, omnidirectional moving. I wish I had known that before I set up my pawn wall!

Some will object that it’s “game-y” to have the AI get special favors. I think we all understand at some level that’s necessary…more than forgivable. It’s much less forgivable to offload the work of interpreting/explaining/understanding how your game works to others, particularly people who have goodwill and will pay for the product. You’re leaning on the frustration of your audience to motivate them to look up all the things you haven’t explained. You’re also banking on the time and patience of people at forums like this one who hear these frustrations repeatedly then pour their energy into responding. They shouldn’t have to. They should be enjoying the game, not trying to pick up the pieces. More transparency and organized pedagogy would give them a fairer chance to.

 

[Bleidraner]

I am not convinced that these "cheat spawns" actually exist. Its clear that the AI is allowed to do things that the players are not, like stacking units and creating a unit and attacking on the same turn, and there is also a bonus to unit production specially on higher levels but I have almost always found explanations for the unit spam from the AI that happens when attacking the capital.

What I usually do is a combination of surprise attacks, pillaging (to impact unit production capabilities) and distraction (attacking other cities not the cap to attrack units and then decending on the cap by surprise), to be completely honest due to my style of play and the fact that most of my games are GoTMs I do not get into battles that I don't know I am going to win in the next 3-4 turns max, so I rarely find myself in this kind of attrition wars.

@DaveD22 the Civilization series is known for forcing the players to understand game mechanics on their own. They barely give us players information about our own capabilities and player game mechanics, let alone in-depth information about how the AIs behave and what boosts they have. I have made my peace with it and even have fun reverse engineering a lot of the game mechanics.

 

[Manpanzee]

The free units on AI capital loss can be easily checked, since it's not something that happens in between turns. If you have vision on the settlement that becomes the new AI capital, you can watch new units instantaneously spawn mid-turn, clearly triggered by your action of taking their old capital. I am not 100% sure that there aren't other conditions or even that this mechanic still exists, but I definitely verified this happening some patches ago.

I am also not 100% convinced that there aren't other explanations for other things people are seeing. But either way, I think that free units materializing mid-game is terrible and shouldn't be in the game. It seems to me that it's against the general ethos of how AI buffs have worked in this series historically. (I also kinda hate the instant free walls, too.)

 

[Bleidraner]

Yes I have seen the instaunits in the past, but not in the last couple of months. I experimented in early January with the capital forced change through conquest and could not reproduce the instaunits.

The instawalls, oh I absolutely hate the instawalls. Hate them. Feels like a lazy solution.

 

[Krikkit1]

@DaveD22 the Civilization series is known for forcing the players to understand game mechanics on their own. They barely give us players information about our own capabilities and player game mechanics, let alone in-depth information about how the AIs behave and what boosts they have. I have made my peace with it and even have fun reverse engineering a lot of the game mechanics.

It is known for that and it is the most terribly vile and pathetic thing about the series. Information about how the AI behaves is one thing, but it’s boosts (and mechanics in general) should be transparent.

 

[MutilationWave]

Yes I have seen the instaunits in the past, but not in the last couple of months. I experimented in early January with the capital forced change through conquest and could not reproduce the instaunits.

The instawalls, oh I absolutely hate the instawalls. Hate them. Feels like a lazy solution.

The time I described with full visibility of the instaunits was on the current patch.

 

[uppi]

I am not convinced that these "cheat spawns" actually exist. Its clear that the AI is allowed to do things that the players are not, like stacking units and creating a unit and attacking on the same turn, and there is also a bonus to unit production specially on higher levels but I have almost always found explanations for the unit spam from the AI that happens when attacking the capital.

Players can also create a unit and attack on the same turn - if they produce that unit with hammers. It only does not work on units bought with gold. Given that units are fairly cheap and the AI gets massive bonuses to unit production (160% on Deity, I think), it should be able to produce a unit a turn and attack with it. Except when it has decided that it is time for a wonder and then there typically is no unit spam.

Stacking units can also happen for players in tight situations, but usually players don't get themselves in situations where every tile is occupied around their own city.

When trying to capture a capital, I usually assume that the AI can spawn in a unit a turn so I am only getting the upper hand in numbers when I can kill more than one unit per turn. But even if I cannot do that, I can play a positional siege: Focus fire a walles tile with siege and ranged units (prioritizing tiles with ranged units), then move in with a melee unit and immediately fortify to tank the counterattack. On the next turn you might want to swap out the tank and then go on to the next tile. Repeat until you capture the city or you run out of sufficiently healthy tanks. You better bring a level 4 bastion commander with order, though.

And sometimes you have to accept that due to the combination of terrain and AI bonuses, you will not be able to take a city in Antiquity and you need to come back later in another age with better tools