Help, what's the logic on what your wise men can research?

Discussion in 'Civ1 - General Discussions' started by Tristan_C, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    I was wondering why some research paths simply aren't available, for some reason, at some times, in some games :mad:

    I started up a civ today, and I wished to pick up The Wheel near to the beginning (success), then either go for mapmaking or get started towards monarchy. I got mapmaking next, with great satisfaction, too, because I'm figuring out I'm on a pretty small island. There was only 1 rival and I gg'd him with a chariot.

    So here's where I stand:
    1. Alphabet (started with it)
    2. The Wheel - first research
    3. Mapmaking - second research
    4. Code of Laws - third research

    The pic is my list of new possible paths: masonry, bronze working, pottery. There is no Ceremonial Burial, which was my next target in the line for Monarchy. I reckoned a tech like that, with NO prereqs, would always show up in the list.
    So... why do I need to spend the next few hundred years on a tech I don't need yet? :( What governs the filtering of techs from this depressingly short list, so I can avoid these setbacks in the future?
     

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  2. Bratmon

    Bratmon Super Bratmon 3

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    Check your science advisor. Do you already have COL?
     
  3. void

    void Warlord

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    Sometimes the game randomly, and intentionally, excludes some techs from the list.

    The rationale could be that not every possible advance had occurred to those ancient wisemen as something they might invent. And from a gaming point of view, it adds some variety to the gameplay. (I believe something to this effect is even stated in the manual.)

    As far as I recall, Chieftain is an exception, and always lists all techs.
     
  4. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    Absolutely, I opted to get code of laws prior before ceremonial burial (force of habit: if the order doesn't matter to you, go for the tech with actual benefits first), and COL was the tech I had just competed when I noticed this issue.



    Ahhhhh... randomness. I thought I smelled it. :spear:
     
  5. Urtica dioica

    Urtica dioica Chieftain

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    I did my own research on this several months ago. It's totally not random, but rather similar to the way Civ 2 does it. I'm going mostly from memory, but the procedure is to take a tech's position in the list (below) and wipe out all the indexes with a certain remainder after dividing by 3, just like Civ 2. Unlike Civ 2, the top two possible techs in the list are always available, instead of just the first.

    I still have the list. The order makes no sense at all, which helps explain why it might seem random. You can find the list yourself if you look inside the binary CIV.EXE.

    Alphabet
    Code of Laws
    Currency
    Atomic Theory
    Democracy
    Monarchy
    Astronomy
    MapMaking
    Navigation
    Mathematics
    Medicine
    Physics
    Engineering
    University
    Magnetism
    Electronics
    Masonry
    Bronze Working
    Iron Working
    Bridge Building
    Invention
    Computers
    Writing
    Steam Engine
    Trade
    Ceremonial Burial
    Mysticism
    Nuclear Fission
    Philosophy
    Religion
    Literacy
    Horseback Riding
    Feudalism
    The Wheel
    Gunpowder
    Industrialization
    Chemistry
    Combustion
    Flight
    Advanced Flight
    Space Flight
    Mass Production
    Pottery
    Communism
    The Republic
    Construction
    Rocketry
    The Corporation
    Metallurgy
    RailRoad
    Nuclear Power
    Theory of Gravity
    Steel
    Banking
    Electricity
    Refining
    Explosives
    SuperConductor
    Automobile
    Genetic Engineering
    Plastics
    Recycling
    Chivalry
    Robotics
    Conscription
    Labor Union
    Fusion Power
    Future Tech

    Just a quick run through, and it seems, in your game, you're missing 3 techs off the list: Writing, Ceremonial Burial, and Horseback Riding. Assuming Alphabet, at the top, is number 1, then the missing techs are numbers 23, 26, and 32. All three of those numbers have a remainder of 2 when divided by 3. Your list includes Bronze Working and Pottery, neither of which has remainder 2, and Masonry is included anyway because it's the first possible tech on the list.

    On your next tech, you can expect techs with remainder zero to disappear, and after that remainder one will disappear. Then the cycle repeats.
     
  6. C1v1l1z@t10n

    C1v1l1z@t10n Warlord

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    Wow this thread was interesting, but I'm not sure I still understand, the list is different per game or per exe binary?
     
  7. lndm

    lndm Prince

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    I always thought that the techs weren't available if other civs were researching them at that given moment. You'll see that it happens more if you are slow in advancing and the techs are usually available next time round.
     
  8. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    Excellent!!! A very interesting breakdown of this issue. By looking at the list, you can tell it's not totally nonsensical. There is a basic progression from ancient to future tech, but noticeably, the expansive academic techs seem to be bumped upward whilst military objectives (the terminal fruits on the research tree) seem to be lower, thus having a tendency to appear less frequently.
     
  9. Dack

    Dack Terra Form Moderator

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    Urtica dioica, I am intrigued by your hypothesis.
    I ran the following
    There are 7 advances that require no previous advance.
    01,00,00, Alphabet
    17,00,00, Masonry
    18,00,00, Bronze Working
    26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial
    32,00,00, Horseback Riding
    34,00,00, The Wheel
    43,00,00, Pottery

    In a game where I’m given no advances at the start I’m offered the following:

    01,00,00, Alphabet
    17,00,00, Masonry
    18,00,00, Bronze Working
    34,00,00, The Wheel
    43,00,00, Pottery

    choice 1: Alphabet
    after completion (* marks choices offered, no asterisk= advance entitled to but not offered)

    02,01,00, Code of Laws *
    08,02,00, MapMaking *
    17,00,00, Masonry *
    18,00,00, Bronze Working
    23,01,00, Writing *
    26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial *
    32,00,00, Horseback Riding *
    34,00,00, The Wheel *
    43,00,00, Pottery *


    choice 2: Code of Laws
    after completion

    08,02,00, MapMaking *
    17,00,00, Masonry *
    18,00,00, Bronze Working *
    23,01,00, Writing *
    26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial *
    32,00,00, Horseback Riding *
    34,00,00, The Wheel
    43,00,00, Pottery


    choice 3 map making
    after completion
    17,00,00, Masonry *
    18,00,00, Bronze Working *
    23,01,00, Writing
    26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial
    32,00,00, Horseback Riding
    34,00,00, The Wheel *
    43,00,00, Pottery *


    I don’t see how this corresponds to your formula.
    I did my testing with version .05, king, 7 countries.
    I used CIV$ to fill the bulb counter.
    There appears to be a pattern to this other than randomness as the choice display was constant over many games.


    HTML:
    First number advance number
    2nd & 3rd advances that allow this advance
    
    00,00,00, Dummy Adavance     
    01,00,00, Alphabet            
    02,01,00, Code of Laws       
    03,18,00, Currency            
    04,12,52, Atomic Theory       
    05,29,31, Democracy           
    06,02,26, Monarchy            
    07,27,10, Astronomy           
    08,02,00, MapMaking           
    09,08,07, Navigation          
    10,01,17, Mathematics         
    11,29,25, Medicine            
    12,09,10, Physics             
    13,34,46, Engineering         
    14,29,10, University          
    15,09,12, Magnetism           
    16,55,13, Electronics         
    17,00,00, Masonry             
    18,00,00, Bronze Working      
    19,18,00, Iron Working        
    20,46,19, Bridge Building     
    21,13,31, Invention           
    22,16,10, Computers           
    23,01,00, Writing             
    24,21,12, Steam Engine        
    25,03,01, Trade               
    26,00,00, Ceremonial Burial   
    27,26,00, Mysticism           
    28,42,04, Nuclear Fission     
    29,31,26, Philosophy          
    30,29,23, Religion            
    31,02,23, Literacy            
    32,00,00, Horseback Riding    
    33,06,17, Feudalism           
    34,00,00, The Wheel           
    35,21,19, Gunpowder           
    36,50,54, Industrialization   
    37,11,14, Chemistry           
    38,56,57, Combustion          
    39,12,38, Flight              
    40,39,55, Advanced Flight     
    41,47,22, Space Flight        
    42,48,59, Mass Production     
    43,00,00, Pottery             
    44,29,36, Communism           
    45,02,31, The Republic        
    46,03,17, Construction        
    47,40,16, Rocketry            
    48,36,54, The Corporation     
    49,35,14, Metallurgy          
    50,24,20, RailRoad            
    51,28,16, Nuclear Power       
    52,14,07, Theory of Gravity   
    53,49,36, Steel               
    54,45,25, Banking             
    55,49,15, Electricity         
    56,48,37, Refining            
    57,37,35, Explosives          
    58,61,42, SuperConductor      
    59,38,53, Automobile          
    60,48,11, Genetic Engineering 
    61,56,41, Plastics            
    62,42,05, Recycling           
    63,33,32, Chivalry            
    64,61,22, Robotics            
    65,45,57, Conscription        
    66,44,42, Labor Union         
    67,58,51, Fusion Power        
    68,67,00, Future Tech.        
    
     
  10. Urtica dioica

    Urtica dioica Chieftain

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    Dack, since your results match my formula exactly, I'll have to assume I didn't explain it well enough. Now that you've given me a scenario to work through, I should be able to make it more clear.

    First off, I note that the top 2 possible techs in each set are possible in each case. So we can ignore those in each example.

    Next, let's run through each tech list, each tech next to its index, remainder of division by 3, and whether it can be researched. I'll parenthesize the top 2 each time, to make it clear they will always be included.

    (01 1 Y Alphabet)
    (17 2 Y Masonry)
    18 0 Y Bronze Working
    26 2 N Ceremonial Burial
    32 2 N Horseback Riding
    34 1 Y The Wheel
    43 1 Y Pottery

    Remainder 2 is out, except Masonry, which is in the top two.

    After alphabet:

    (02 2 Y Code of Laws)
    (08 2 Y MapMaking)
    17 2 Y Masonry
    18 0 N Bronze Working
    23 2 Y Writing
    26 2 Y Ceremonial Burial
    32 2 Y Horseback Riding
    34 1 Y The Wheel
    43 1 Y Pottery

    Remainder 0 is out.

    After Code of Laws:

    (08 2 Y MapMaking)
    (17 2 Y Masonry)
    18 0 Y Bronze Working
    23 2 Y Writing
    26 2 Y Ceremonial Burial
    32 2 Y Horseback Riding
    34 1 N The Wheel
    43 1 N Pottery

    Remainder 1 is out.

    After MapMaking

    (17 2 Y Masonry)
    (18 0 Y Bronze Working)
    23 2 N Writing
    26 2 N Ceremonial Burial
    32 2 N Horseback Riding
    34 1 Y The Wheel
    43 1 Y Pottery

    Remainder 2 is out, except Masonry, which is in the top two.

    So, yeah... perfect match.

    I'm glad you used CIV$ to fill the bulb box, instead of gifting the tech, like I did for a while. When I just added the tech (with CIV$), the remainder counter didn't turn, which was really confusing for a while. ;)
     
  11. Valen

    Valen TWAYF Builder

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    Wow! How long have I been playing Civ and not noticed this pattern? Great sleuthing Urtica dioica!

    The attachment shows the science advisor's display when researching future tech.
    The advances are listed in the same order as Urtica dioica's list. Initially, when you have no advances, the denied advances are in column 2. With one discovery, the deined advances are in column 3. Next, denied advances are in column 1. The cycle repeats.
    The science advisor's display just makes the pattern easier to see.
     

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  12. Bratmon

    Bratmon Super Bratmon 3

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    I've played Civ 1 for three years, and I didn't even notice techs were missing!!
     
  13. Osvaldo Manso

    Osvaldo Manso Warlord

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    I've been on vacations and now I find out that I missed a wonderful thread...

    Urtica dioica did a great great work! He deserves an "honoris causa" degree.

    This feature of the game was introduced during the test phase by Sid Meier himself, because he thought that the game needed a little randomness when it comes to choose what to research next.

    I like it lot because it's like the real world: sometimes you plan things carefully and they turn out the way you wanted; but other times even if things were carefully planed they will go wrong!
     
  14. poecraft

    poecraft Chieftain

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    Hi dudes !

    Sorry for my bad english. I think I am the unique latin in this forum. I am beginner in this excellent web, i found it "googling", because i want know how to play the original pc Civ. I have been reading it is the best for a lot people.
    I m curious, when you open a city, there is some draws or icons inside, no no, sorry, i can t write good. Sorry.

    Anybody knows a bilingual user that could helpme write in correct way my questions in this web ? I could write in spanish and then someone helpme translate into english. ?

    I hope someone understand my disaster english, I really want to play this game, but I feel buggy my mind .
     
  15. lndm

    lndm Prince

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    Hi poecraft, your English is good enough for me to read.

    Are you talking about the icons at the top on the left? The icons of people, shields, gold coins and arrows?
     
  16. poecraft

    poecraft Chieftain

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    Hi thanks for your answer and disposition !! I have found in the Civilization 1 section, a lot of information and charts and screenshots of the game, with that I think is enough to begin read and understand the logic, I gonna read it, really I give you my thanks lndm !!
    Greetings ! :)
     
  17. lndm

    lndm Prince

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    You're welcome :)
     
  18. Dack

    Dack Terra Form Moderator

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    A few Sundays ago on some whim I decided to add the mod three algorithm that Urtica dioica has so clearly described to CIV$. I used my tried and true method, define the event and compare the before and after SVE file with a binary compare program. About an hour later I found the advance mod counter starting at HEX 04D8 (first byte in file is 0)


    Code:
    Hex
    04D8  (2 bytes)   0 Barbarian
    04DA              1 Russian    / Roman
    04DC              2 Babylonian / Zulu
    04DE              3 German     / French
    04E0              4 Egyptian   / Aztec
    04E2              5 American   / Chinese
    04E4              6 English    / Greek
    04E6              7 Indian     / Mongol
    Each civilization having it’s own counter. Users of CIV$ will note that no next advance appears on the pages that allows for manipulation of the advance bits of the games civilizations. Only the human player can select what advance is being produced. I assume the game has some pseudorandom way of assigning the advance when the light bulb count has reached the appropriate value for non-human civilizations. The researching Advance value for the human player is stored in a word (16 bits) at 000E. At this moment I assume that the advance mod counter is incremented when a new advance is achieved. (Does anyone know how the value for the next advance is calculated? How many light bulbs are need for the next advance? *note1). This advance mod counter must be used in the calculation to determine how many light bulbs will be needed. Although I seldom get into Future Tech., I had wondered where it’s counter was. In testing for this change I decide to look for it data location. Future Tech is at hex8BAC only the human player appears to have a Future Tech counter.
    Basically I just wanted to see if I could reproduce in code the mod three algorithm so that in CIV$ I could see what the computer would offer. This will appear in the next version.


    This line of research sent me off on a tangent. The preverbal light bulb went off. The “Pollution Bug” *, the descriptions of it always describe some number of Future Tech’s triggering the event.

    * If you interested in the pollution bug look at post #18 in thread Pollution "Bug"

    Note 1

    I found two definition of advance light bulb count:
    1)The number of lightbulbs needed for each new advance is:
    (difficulty level+3)*2*(# of advances you already have).
    2) Human Player Lightbulb Incremement Per Advance
    Each time an advance is discovered, the cost (in lightbulbs) of acquiring the next increases by this amount. Chieftan 6. Warlord 8, Prince 10, King 12, Emperor 14

    Can anyone verify the truth of either?
     

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  19. LordOfTheGeeks

    LordOfTheGeeks Chieftain

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    I've noticed this effect too, and have always wondered about it. Thanks for the info!
     
  20. Nesretnik

    Nesretnik Chieftain

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    Not being offered advances that I'm entitled to is an aspect of the game that's always narked me. Now, after all these years of playing Civ, I finally discover that it's not a bug at all, but a planned feature! But why? Beelining to a 'technology' like Chivalry, or deliberately leaving The Wheel, say, undiscovered as long as you can, is one of the fun aspects of this game. If realism is desirable, why not force us to discover technologies in strict historical order? Or not let us choose our technologies at all, but let each advance be randomly selected from those that are available (but perhaps with a weighting factor to favour the advance we prefer)?

    Anyway...

    I rarely play at any level other than King, and I noticed early on that the cost of each advance was 12 more than the previous. This, of course, agrees with your formulations above. (They're just two different descriptions of the same formula, right?) But I haven't done any rigorous testing that this pattern continues beyond the point where it becomes tedious to count all those little light bulbs squashed up in a row, or that the other levels behave similarly.

    Well, I'm new here, and after writing the para above (now struck out) it only took me an hour to discover the 'Difficulty Levels' resource, where the formula is confirmed. Oh, well...

    BTW, I really like these simple formulae in Civ, especially the one for city population growth. When I tried Civ3 I was appalled that that beautiful simplicity had been removed from the city-growth algorithm.
     

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