Help with a push against the "Ranged Sea"

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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I had a very interesting war against China recently as France. It was UU vs UU, musketeers vs Chu-ko-nu. It was a pyrrhic victory for me, and I could use people's thoughts to try and improve.

EDIT: I just got thrown into another war with China, so I am documenting the next run. Also, very important, China has the great wall for the analysis.


So of course like an idiot I didn't take screenshots during the war to show my positions, sigh, but below is a screenshot of the terrain after the war.

1) I had a large number of musketeers. A combination of landschik converted into Musketeer, a few lancers, a few heavy skirmishers, and about 6 cannon. I was hitting from the north and east, and controlled all of the tiles north and east of Shanghai

2) Promotion wise, the majority of my teers were Drill III City Siege or Drill I Cover II (Paris had Alhambra so I would regenerate troops with these promotions to start countering Chu-Ko-Nu). I had a few specialists with Shock III Mobility (move 4 muskets!). Hehe, the my one attempt at a Shock III March Musket was killed the second I promoted him:(

I had full authority, China went Progress.

3) China had a few tercio, lancer, and cannons...and just a lot of Chu-Ko-Nu.

4) In terms of absolute success, I actually did well. I killed way more units than I lost. What would happen is every round I would do a bombard of cannons and then push in with a few tercio. I would often kill 5-6 units or so. China would then kill 2-3. We would rinse and repeat. Eventually holes started opening in my line, or China would buy a lancer and immediately pop one of my cannons.

5) Eventually the AI bonuses kicked in, and the tide of battle turned. Further as you can see in the screenshot, the chu-ko-nus were now being promoted to musketmen. I had to conduct a full scale retreat.

6) China sued for peace, I had a moderate war win and pillaged a lot more than China did. So it was a "win" in absolute military terms. But...I have lost all of my heavily promoted musketeers, and effectively have to rebuild my army from scratch. Ultimately I think I am ok, China is also weakened and we both have to replace our armies, we are the only remaining powers left on the continent so I'm not worried about a counterattack. But I know that immortal/diety players play the idea of losing heavily promoted units is never acceptable, so I want to work on not losing so much, even for a "win".


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It's hard to say without the details, but judging from your description, I suspect that you may have moved in your tercios too early only to lose them in the Chinese counter-offensive. It is tempting to move in once you make a small dent in the enemy ranks, but if they have enough units in the back, they will drive you out and you will lose units. It may be tempting to charge in, but I think it is important to keep the formation and not create a bulge in your frontier exposing your units to concentrated counter-attacks and flanking.

For the future war, I think the Cover I-II promotion, extra roads (and maybe even forts and citadels) around the border to move the reinforcements and your damaged units quicky in and out will be your friends.

I see it rarely mentioned, but I think highly promote scout units for screening are useful in the attrition wars to know when you can charge in safely.

Edit: I think it will also be easier after all the double-shot choks will be gone.
 
So round 2. This time I had Drill 1 Cover 2 Fusiliers, a few cannons, and musketmen vs Musketmen, a few tercios, and lancers. I have a screenshot at the end of each turn to show positions and the like.

This time I was absolutely crushed. I lost 5 units every turn for 4 turns (no exaggeration), and as you can see in the last screenshot, its not looking good.

I think the simple reality I have to accept is that pushing into an AI's defensive position is just not possible without many many turns of defensive warfare where you kill scores of their units. I thought that Cover 2 Fusiliers could hold against logistics musketmen and cannons but that proved completely false, they folded like paper before China's might. I would love more thoughts from the warmongers but I think I just have to accept that you cannot war against the AI on Emperor at this stage in the game without some patience. My "lightning warfare" France failed to strike twice:(

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War Start. I have a solid front against little China resistance (at least...not yet). The biggest issue is that cannon gurney to the left.

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I took a bunch of hits but I now have a good line pushing in on the north and east. However, that western area with the cannons is looking weak, and my south-eastern line is weaker than I would like after some initial loses.

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I've crushed the forces around the city but I'm still taking severe attrition. I've reinforced the north line (especially that western piece), but south-east is looking shaky.

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North and Eastern lines are starting to dig in. I also have some lancers further north (off screen) that are pushing south into the cannon line that is over to the west, to finally pull some of the heat off of my northern line. I have sent musketmen to the south east to begin repairing that line, but the cannon that was there is gone.

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Collapse. China has reinforced and has put critical holes in all of my lines. The north line that once looked promising was annihilated in a single turn, and north west is once again flaky. South East is also looking bad. I am in full scale retreat at this point.

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Decimation: My remaining troops are routed by lancers. To add injury to insult, China has brought newly minted field guns to bear. Game Over.
 
I redid the battle going for a slower approach. Now I'm only losing 2-3 units per turn, but I haven't made any real headway. Shanghai also has an arsenal now so I think its just time to pack it in.

I turned off quick combat to watch the damage numbers, I was curious how well my Cover 2 fusiliers were doing. So the accuracy 3 muskets were doing 21 a shot on average (I would see as low as 19, and as high as 24). So about 42 damage per unit with their logistics factored in, which the AI maintained because they would use barrage promotions to finish the job (which the AI seemed to use correctly so kudos to them).

That means 3 muskets would snipe a fresh unit. But what's more telling is that a fresh fusilier that healed 25 of that would still die to 2 muskets next round on average. So yeah Fusiliers are not the answer here, they just can't hold against that kind of damage. I think I need to go pure musketmen with some lancers to finish off units (if I were to redo this war again). But the great wall just makes that very tricky, I might have needed to just use 3 of my generals and make citadels to cut in on the terrain and give me healing a chance to work.
 
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What difficulty is this?
I prefer to edge the opponent with ranged and mounted ranged and cut down units until the AI is more or less out of units (ie out of gold/happiness) while losing as little as possible.
Authority AI on higher diffiiculties can in my experience produce a lot of crap but progress and tradition should not be a big issue but well ... china.

It seems you are playing too agressive.
Chinas UU is .... well we all know how good it is, you are trying to encircle the AI on a far too wide scale imo, that works on prince and lower where its so easy to get far far ahead but king, emperor and above you want to pick a position where you can constantly retreat and move units back and forth.
Of course china with great wall is an issue.
What you can do is to not fight china in their territory until you think you have good enough tech that gw doesn't matter.
Also you have in several images more than one great general, if you only attack from the east, pop one or even two ggs at border to create "your land" near Shanghai then you can move back and forth easier.

Musketeers are cool but they aren't murder machines.
 
I redid the battle going for a slower approach. Now I'm only losing 2-3 units per turn, but I haven't made any real headway. Shanghai also has an arsenal now so I think its just time to pack it in.

I turned off quick combat to watch the damage numbers, I was curious how well my Cover 2 fusiliers were doing. So the accuracy 3 muskets were doing 21 a shot on average (I would see as low as 19, and as high as 24). So about 42 damage per unit with their logistics factored in, which the AI maintained because they would use barrage promotions to finish the job (which the AI seemed to use correctly so kudos to them).

That means 3 muskets would snipe a fresh unit. But what's more telling is that a fresh fusilier that healed 25 of that would still die to 2 muskets next round on average. So yeah Fusiliers are not the answer here, they just can't hold against that kind of damage. I think I need to go pure musketmen with some lancers to finish off units (if I were to redo this war again). But the great wall just makes that very tricky, I might have needed to just use 3 of my generals and make citadels to cut in on the terrain and give me healing a chance to work.

When I look at the screenshots, I'd definitely get some Citadels as they can make a huge difference. I never ever attempt lightning warfare against the AI on Emperor unless I'm on par in military, ahead in tech and/or have terrains that work in my advantage. You need to make those rivers work in your favor. The Great Wall is already a pretty big hindrance. Why not use rivers against Chinese units?

One of the biggest problems is how flat the terrain is. They make it so that your Fusiliers will get ripped to shreds by Logistics Musketmen. Those Cover 2 promotions won't do much if Chinese ranged units can fire with impunity. Of course, those promotions are very useful if you are defending against China as not as many of their Musketmen can get decent positioning. A Fusilier on a Citadel should last a bit longer, though not by much.

My biggest advice is to stay on the defensive first. Pushing forward like what you're doing without whittling down enemy numbers is foolish. Generally, it's easier to defend than attack. Unless your foe is fighting two fronts, it's foolhardy to take that AI head on and giving it advantages like fighting in their territory where the AI has sight and roads. If you stay on the defensive, you can limit your losses and that can make a huge difference in the long run. The last thing you want is your WW ramping up early in the war and becomes unbearable before you even get a single city.

You are also playing France. Being patient will be worth it because, once you weaken China, taking city will be easier due to your incredible UA. While defending, you should also use that UA to your best efforts. The French UA lets you kill enemy units with fewer volleys so you can maximize damage and really drive China's WW up. I also think the wider front can work in your favor as it allows you to spread out your ranged units more to capitalize on your UA. Overall, you need a much slower approach and be patient with your choices.

While Lancers are nice, they lack defensive capabilities and you might need a few to hold your flanks and guard key locations. A composition of all your unlocked units will be necessary. I'm also curious about your roads in your territory. If you can outmaneuver your foe, then it makes a huge difference. I've learned that not losing units is extremely hard but, if those lost units can act as bait so you can outdamage the AI, then it's worth it.
 
Its just a tough position, a think a conventional war will always either lose or at best stalemate.

Maybe try to just get a stalemate on land but do something with navy. Wait till the Great Wall is gone, getet autocracy and try to sweep through; blitz landships might be enough? Nuke her.

If you can grind her, get some trade routes, and ideally sanction her, you might be able to cripple her with war wariness. She could have happiness issues with those big cities.
 
To answer a few questions people asked:

1) Difficult: Emperor
2) Techwise: I was ahead of tech for most of this war. I had fusiliers while he had tercios. But he was able to parity out in the later turns.

So ultimately I repeated the exercise several times. I tried a bunch of citadels but it didn't really help. I couldn't hold the spots against the ranged unit barrage. It took more shots, so less units died, but died they did nonetheless.

Ultimately what I did was take the one easy to take China city in the upper left while completely pulling back this campaign. I huddled up against my cities, let him come to me, and starting killing units. Eventually China sued for peace. Ultimately I did not get the Chinese cities that I wanted but I did pick up one city and this time didn't lose my entire army:) I think I will just have to hold the line until Air power or tanks can finally overcome the logistics advantage from China, and then finally they will be mine!!! :devil:
 
You simply don't fight China UUs with Great Wall :hammer: Most of her empire is coastal with some cities bordering 3+ water tiles so I would have built a navy while stalling the land war. There's also no way you could have breached into a 73CS (93 when using defense project I guess) Shangai before artillery/air so there was little to be gained there, if not culture/science from Authority but that you can farm luring her into your own land. I would have promoted the bulk of your Musketeers with Blitz, that's just too good with their base movement.
 
Any situation where you're losing 2-3 units per turn to kill 5-6 of hers is just not sustainable. I think you're just being too aggressive chasing kills. I would not finish off her units with melee (which puts your melee unit potentially out of position) unless that melee unit can be reasonably expected to survive the counter attack. Either let her unit survive or attack with melee first and finish off with ranged so that your melee line isn't overextended.

The above advice basically boils down to "do not trade units with the AI" even if you're trading at a 2-1 or even 3-1 ratio. I think that advice is fairly universal to most situations.

In your specific situation, her UU and great wall means you have to be even more patient and careful than usual. You probably needed to figure out favorable terrain to fight defensively at (setting up kill zones where she will stupidly move a unit into certain death) and grind her down without pushing forward and overextending. Meanwhile, pillage tiles, roads, and trade routes as much as possible to get her WW score up. Eventually WW will cause her reinforcements to slow down and you will find that pushing in on cities becomes viable.

If you only have the patience for lightning warfare then you need more significant advantages in military tech where you can be aggressively attacking and pushing forward without losing units to counter attack.
 
I think you're just being too aggressive chasing kills. I would not finish off her units with melee (which puts your melee unit potentially out of position) unless that melee unit can be reasonably expected to survive the counter attack.

I agree on the first run. When I did the second run through I stopped attacking with melee, but found out that even not attacking, the melee line couldn’t hold against the ranged attacks, they would die regardless.

It just showcases how much I overestimated cover (and/or underestimated logistic muskets). The only realistic course of action was a complete withdrawal to my cities to soak the damage while I found vulnerabilities to hit.
 
I agree on the first run. When I did the second run through I stopped attacking with melee, but found out that even not attacking, the melee line couldn’t hold against the ranged attacks, they would die regardless.

It just showcases how much I overestimated cover (and/or underestimated logistic muskets). The only realistic course of action was a complete withdrawal to my cities to soak the damage while I found vulnerabilities to hit.

Usually I would think the melee line can take some hits as long as they are not being focus fired by more than a few units in a turn. Usually the terrain helps with this- forests/jungles or hills create locations where your opponent can't easily focus fire. Meanwhile, you perch your ranged at locations such that they can focus fire certain tiles and those tiles become your kill zones. It's typically not too hard to bait your opponent into moving into those tiles.

For instance, in your last screen shot I see some pretty decent places east of Shanghai just inside your borders where you can setup traps for his advancing units where the terrain would limit his mobility and line of sight. To the north of Shanghai I would stay on the north side of the river- whichever army tries to cross the river is going to suffer (assuming both armies are roughly evenly matched). I would bait his units and kill them for a while, and meanwhile try to pillage with mounted or scout units to supplement WW. After a while of WW building up you should see his military start to weaken and eventually collapse. The trick is dealing with your own WW while this goes on.

Of course, if you're picking a fight with an easier target than a Great Wall China with her UU then you might more easily get away with a blitz and skip this attrition strategy.
 
I've crushed the forces around the city but I'm still taking severe attrition. I've reinforced the north line (especially that western piece), but south-east is looking shaky.

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The amount of ranged attacks China will do is 17. That is quite a lot of damage.

Your example shows why infantry sucks hard. Yes they are resilient and needed to form a line but you overkilled in infantry. They trade HP to deal damage. Ranged units on the other hand just shoot without counter and an injured ranged unit can still hurt enemy if needed.

If I were you, you would see at least 7-8 skirmisher line unit in the screenshot. By that time at least a few of my skirmishers would get parthian tactics promotion so I could easily snipe critical units, hit and run more effectively. Moreove in case of France, I would definitely bring more musketman (I see 2). French UA is monstrous for ranged units.

Still, what I propose could fail because of great wall and AI hordes.
 
Infantry units, even UUs, are mostly there to frontline and soak damage while your important units deal damage. Especially against a ranged UU you needed to have way more mounted units. If you had started that war with a solid complement of 10+ mounted units with ~4 promotions you would have been one-shotting their unprotected archers until they couldn't keep up. Also worth noting that a big part of sustained war is pillaging. See all those farms and GPTIs you left unpillaged? Those are allowing them to keep working decent yield tiles and keep up. A 27 pop city will starve very quickly with those tiles getting pillaged or occupied to force laborers.
 
The great wall makes it tough but here's my war strategy:

First thing is that in the NW you should not have pushed. The great wall plus the river gives you no room to maneuver and the narrow front has no good attack access to the city. Use the two forest tiles behind the river for your infantry with cover with a few musketmen with medic. Your goal here is just to hold the line.

The center is pretty open at the start. I'd get two infantry with cover on your side of the river and have cannons behind them. Keep a few spare infantry on China's side of the great wall to sub these guys out.

The south is where the majority of your fighting will take place. Here you just need to prevent a counter attack from getting to your cannon before the city falls and you army folds. Prior to war you need roads over all those desert tiles. Ideally you'd plant a citadel on the desert tile east of china's fort prior to the war and use that and the existing fort as your bulwark. It'd also be useful to try and cut china's roads to the city before reinforcements came. I doubt you'd be able to encircle the city completely but you should be able to protect 4-5 cannon positions.

With all that being said, I don't know if it's really worth pushing south at this pout as Shanghai has a ton of defense points. I also don't see a viable option for pushing past the exposed Shanghai deeper into China. Maybe China or Romes northern cities would be easier targets. You have a good defensive position in the south and it looks like a war would be easier later in the game when you can bring tanks/planes/artillery into the region and not worry about the great wall.
 
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The great wall makes it tough but here's my war strategy:

First thing is that in the NW you should not have pushed. The great wall plus the river gives you no room to maneuver and the narrow front has no good attack access to the city.

Agreed

Use the two forest tiles behind the river for your infantry with cover with a few musketmen with medic. Your goal here is just to hold the line.

Unfortunately the ranged storm was too strong even for those positions. My infantry in those spots still died in one round.

With all that being said, I don't know if it's really worth pushing south at this pout as Shanghai has a ton of defense points.

Agreed, I will come back when the G wall has fallen, and have my REVENGE!!!
 
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