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Help with early research rate on IMM

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by gavenkoa, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    I often end in a situation when my research rate significantly dropped with first-second non-capital city.

    I am unable to get to Writing before first non-capital city (around T35-T50) and to Currency (T90-110) / Alphabet (T60-80).

    Sometimes I even research Currency by Library scientists at 0Gpt.

    With Philosophical leader I can base my entire research power on settled GS (near 1-2 + Academy at T100 + 2 from Great Lib).


    To be concrete. It is T50 (the save is attached). My income 12Gpt, taxes 7Gpt (1Gpt to support large number of units).

    upload_2019-11-22_16-27-3.png

    Search path:

    upload_2019-11-22_15-47-48.png

    I am ready to settle second noncap city which is resulted in income 13Gpt and taxes 11Gpt. +2Gpt for research ((

    So I won't see library in near future ))

    I played game 2nd time, first time I went for AH and it cost me 12T and almost non beakers in Writing before I got to zero Gold balance. It was unacceptable so I replayed.

    Another reason for starting again from 4000BC was Raging Barbarians option. I went for Hunting because it is cheap and there is Deer in the capital BFC. So I grew 3 early Warriors for fog busting as Barbs crippled the capital in the first attempt.

    Archery is expensive, so I avoid it.

    City maintenance is 9 (when I settled second noncap city) due to distance. If I placed cities near the capital it would be 6Gpt (I assume). I took Creative leader and survey shown important places to grab from AIs and secure my position:

    upload_2019-11-22_16-11-17.png

    Resource placement can explain my decision (blue - me, red- AIs, yellow - my cities at T100):

    upload_2019-11-22_16-15-29.png

    I see my problem for above map:

    * I don't have Cottages - that how I tried to improve situation.
    * I don't have roads (+3Gpt).
    * I avoided early Wonders having that I am Industrious.
    * I have good hammer / food surplus don't know how to convert it to research.
    * At T50 I have 3 workers only. I even steal one with quick peace treaty later.

    By T100 I was behind in tech race.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Jarno

    Jarno Chieftain

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    Hi Gavenkoa. I think it's clear what holding you back on Imm difficulty: you settle your first cities waaaay too far from your capital. Firstly, you'll get a significant distance penalty (which I believe increases with difficulty level), secondly you miss out on you first trade routes between your own cities. Ideally, you want to place your first settlement such that it instantly has a trade route to your capital. Only exception for distant settling of your first city is the presence of gold/gems which can pay for the distance penalty. Please watch Lain's video's on YT, he pays lots of attention to these kind of detaills.
     
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  3. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Plains farms with that cap are not excusable, could you explain why you are even thinking about building those? ~~
    And i am at a loss of words for Orleans.
    Blocking cities are not needed with good land around you (double river corn west), if you settle closer and then take what you want from AIs with Construction you would do much much better, not even compareable.
     
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  4. Zavior

    Zavior Trying to (b)eat deity

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    I wouldn't have settled either Orleans or Lyons, both are too far from the cap
     
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  5. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    Thanks for replays. I see the point.

    Quick math to see the difference. My bad decisions leads to +2Gpt surplus. I expect that close cities saves +3Gpt (from 9 => 6) and roads gives another +3Gpt (especially as I started with Wheel).

    In total: +8Gpt instead of +2Gpt.

    What can be done beyond this improvement? Are there any?

    Workers have nothing to do (( I can probably build roads, but it was useless for distant cities...

    Cottages?? What about going for Pottery before Hunting? I see importance of cottages to save economy from default.

    How about been at zero income and funding research by Scientists in all cities? (in other words over-expand but get larger number of cities early giving them time to develop early)

    He doesn't explain details. I don't understand reasons behind his actions. I asked questions here regarding his gameplay (why he gifted city to AI for instance).

    And sometimes I disagree with his decisions. In youtube comments he acknowledged that some his actions were even stupid.
     
  6. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Mistakes/misunderstandings so far:
    • settle good, close spots first
    • mine the pig if you are not going AH
    • river connects cities if all river tiles are under your culture (very easy with creative), so you don't even need to waste time on roads. Copper doesn't need road either, river connects it
    • grass cottages are preferable to plains cottages
    • granary is very early since you don't have the :) to whip/grow, it's better to stagnate and slow-build settlers
    • don't build plains farms
    Only the first one of these is stopping you from beating immortal. Here you have an insta-connected double wet corn spot available. :crazyeye:
     
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  7. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    While certainly everyone makes mistakes, Lain's mistakes are usually of very small magnitude and don't matter much. You can even start a thread here asking specific questions on decisions he made, just give a link and the time of decision.
     
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  8. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    That's stupid of me.

    I searched why sometimes rivers open trading sometimes not. That knowledge saves Workers turns! Thx.

    I had a problem with that. I thought it gives +1H+1C (with farm). But it is much better to have improved over the time +1H+2/3/4C-1F. Food surplus should cover food deficit of plain.

    Is that the only reason to avoid plain farms?

    Green farms are sometimes necessary for slavery/specialists. Because farm surplus is subject of multiplier (1F => 2H with slavery, 2 farms support specialist so 3Bpt + first GS after 33T that costs 1500B, that's 50B/T!!).
     
  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The chief reason you avoid plain farms is because it cost workerturns.
    A workerturn is worth roughly 5hammers. (Just like a rule of thumb, thats what you get from chopping non-stop).
    So for a plains farm, you are first investing the food to gain the population to work that tile, which is 25-30F, then you invest the equivalent of 25 hammers of workerturns.
    What do you profit? Oh, about 1H per turn, because higher pop usually means higher upkeep too (although counteracted abit by decreasing unit upkeep).

    So your investment is 50 hammer/food to gain 1H per turn. Not good enough.
     
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  10. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    I don't understand what are you talking about )) Please explain.

    I build Granary in city size 1 because it is finished at size 2/3 and cuts cost of growth to size 4 (or whatever it is).

    I don't see direct benefits of keeping city at size 1 by building settler ((

    Do you meen that whip effective if you have extra happiness? That it is inefficient to perform 4->2 whip if city limit is 4 and I need to wait for city limit 5-6 (or which is right??) to benefit from whip cycles?
     
  11. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    UPDATE (following contains mistake, not 5T but 4T is right)

    Early it is 20H/5T = 4H (one turn to enter the forest and 4T to chop).
    Later it is 30H/5T = 6H.

    I try to direct forest to Workers/Settlers/Granary/Library/Wonder, other is situational.

    That is an interesting point.

    Sure, forest is not an infinite resource. But early on it is a valuable resource. I changed my habit to work only with one worker early on. Now I am chopping second Worker to be able to chop twice faster ))

    There are cases when I left forest as it is natural surplus of +1H. I am not sure if it is right decision. Imaging there is no hills. Only a few forest tiles. How should you build costly buildings? By maximizing food overflow from lots of Axmen?? I understand concept but feel it alien when it comes to apply in actual game.... Can any confirm that chopping and overflow is the only efficient way to go even in hammer pure BFC?
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @gavenkoa
    Try to play this opening abit:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-202-churchil-of-england.639632/
    Settle on that riverside plainshill wine (natural move).
    From there on, it's extremly unlikely that you will ever whip anything with the capital.

    This is a very food poor capital, and thus you want to reserve all food you can for growth, thus all chops you make should be redirected into workers/settlers. This minimizes the ammount of food that is converted to hammers during settler/worker production.


    There just isn't any situation where you won't chop. Everything should be chopped, and most of the time it should be chopped as soon as possible. :)
    Sometimes you make a brief pause for math, and sometimes you leave a even number of forest if the health situation is really dire.
     
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  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Is this thread for real? Why would you settle Orleans next to a creative leader 9-10 tiles away? Crazy. You realy need to look at the basics of your game. You have been following this forum for months. Are you not taking in any of the advice? I don't get it.

    Don't forget early hammers now give snowball effect for later. So getting city 2/3 sooner really helps as you are gaining hammers/food per turn for these cities.

    20/4=5 hammers per turn. Even more with a fast worker.
     
  14. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Plains are just bad overall, because cottages will be :food:-negative and plains farms give very little. Krikav already answered you I guess. :)

    Don't keep city at size 1. After worker, build warriors, grow to maybe size 3 and start getting settlers out. You can grow later to size 5 (building warriors/axes) and stagnate on workers/settlers again. This is very common in Lain's videos, too, but you don't seem to get anything out of them.

    While granary does cut growing in half, in order to get max benefit from it you need to be able to fluctuate in size (meaning growing and whipping). Here you maybe could 3-pop settlers but in that case you've improved many tiles for nothing (and mines don't go very well along with that idea). So it was better just to forget granary for now.

    Yes. In general, whipping much without a single :)-resource or being CHA is not going to work out great, so you need to rely more on stagnating, chopping settlers/workers and even working mines. And if you are stagnating, a granary does nothing for you.

    "Overflow" is confusing you. What costly buildings do you want to build even? You want some libraries, but a library (without CRE) is an easy 3-pop whip at size 6. If you set up your city well (granary first, work food+cottages), this won't even take much time. Maybe you want a forge later, but that's so much later you don't need to worry about it. Other buildings are very marginal, and too costly. ;)

    I don't understand what you mean in the bolded part. Pure BFC?
     
  15. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Lyons is a stretch, but it's not crazy to settle there. I think I'd settle it 1E though to be a little closer and get some more river. Then it's only 5 tiles away from your capital.

    Orleans is the real problem. 10 tiles away, and it's not even that great of a city. Just let Wang Kon have it. It's totally undependable if he decides to attack it, not to mention the raging barbarians.

    Instead of Orleans, I'd settle 1N of the marble. That'll get you furs, and more riverside grass tiles. Then just max out on grass river cottages. With say, 4 grass river cottages in Paris, 3 in Marble city, and 2 scientists + library in Lyons, plus trade routes, that'll be a decent early economy.
     
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  16. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    You are right! As @krikav

    When you've just moved Worker to forest you see:

    upload_2019-11-22_20-5-29.png

    I used to remember it as 3 but later was confused with 4

    /Units/CIV4BuildInfos.xml:

    Code:
    <BuildInfo>
      <Type>BUILD_REMOVE_FOREST</Type>
      <Description>TXT_KEY_BUILD_REMOVE_FOREST</Description>
      <FeatureStructs>
          <FeatureStruct>
              <FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST</FeatureType>
              <PrereqTech>TECH_BRONZE_WORKING</PrereqTech>
              <iTime>300</iTime>
              <iProduction>30</iProduction>
              <bRemove>1</bRemove>
          </FeatureStruct>
      </FeatureStructs>
    </BuildInfo>
    
    I believe iTime=300 is a build speed in term of hundreds. Like

    Code:
    <Type>BUILD_ROAD</Type>
    <iTime>200</iTime>
    
     
  17. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    Really I didn't know how to find leader's traits quickly (without F12). It is irritating to remember all 50 leaders by name.

    I saw this info inside "Victory conditions" only today for the first time when I prepared screenshots for this post ))

    upload_2019-11-22_20-46-33.png

    I knew that Handhi is Creative, now I know how to find Defensive and Financial leaders too ))
     
  18. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Warlord

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    That changes everything!

    I believed in Hammers. I desperately wanted them. But I don't need them!

    Those forum posts about collecting overflows into Wonders just added confusion to my weak understanding.

    The only problem with Library in non-capital is that happiness limit is 4, far from 3-whip ((
     
  19. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Only talking about Lyons: you might have over-stretched the basic rule that strong food should be in the first ring, that could explain this kind of settling for 3 AGRI resources. If, on the other hand, the city has only food and the only commerce will be a future trade route, then no wonder that you don't reach WRITING. Any city should carry its own weight very soon, so you need more than a trade route. You are already with your 2. city too far from the capitol and also too far from the river (health and cottages).
    This could possibly be a good settlement for a GP farm, but you don't even have writing, so far too early and far to distant.
     
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  20. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    1 chop and you have a 2-pop whip.

    Regarding plains farms, you mentioned yourself that you have no roads. But France starts with the wheel, so you could have built some roads if nothing else was urgent for your workers.
    I guess you got scared of your costs per turn and river farms at least give 1:commerce: , but building almost useless improvements is not how you should approach that. Instead keep your costs lower at start, and once you have pottery and writing you can play around with thoughts like settling further away cities.

    With a low happy cap, some cities can switch into "commerce mode".
    Example: 1 5:food: tile, 2 scientists after library whip, and 1 cottage.
    Now you have only +1:food: / turn, and while this city produces no :hammers: for now it stabilizes your economy.

    Can also be done with just cottages / luxury tiles, food sharing is an advanced method for low happy situations as well.
    When your size 4 city has no need for food currently, another one close could take over :food: and start developing.
     
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