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Help with Sid trading

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by grunt3, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. grunt3

    grunt3 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    7
    I replayed Moonsinger's Sid HOF game from 4000BC and I fall behind in techs every time by 1000 BC -- I've done multiple replays. Persia is always the run away tech leader and has the Pyramids. If anyone is able to replay this and keep up with techs by trading, I would love to hear how. I research at 10% and start off with Alphabet then Writing. By the time I am done Writing, Persia already has the Republic and Map Making. I contact Korea near 1000BC and they are slightly behind Persia, but still far enough ahead that I have nothing to trade them.
     
  2. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    I don't remember the game details, but I can say that sounds about right to me. If it is a continent or pangea map, the AI will make contact very soon as they have 2 attack units to start and fan out.

    This allows lots of contacts and trades of tech, so they burn through the AA. One of the civ with an early GA will run out to big start and then it depends on their lands if they run away form everyone, till you can start to make gains.

    Trades will be hard to come by, you need to luck out and have a contact that does not have your start techs and not have someone that does. You next show is to get philo first, not easy to do even on island maps.

    Then have some contacts and peddle it immediately. If you manage to stay out of war, then try for another tech that is optional and trade it, but it wil be be very tough to accomplish.

    I have spend 40 turns with a lone scientist on a dead end tech and then someone swoops in and gets it. If you at war, then it is a different story. You must get a leader quickly or it will be nasty.
     
  3. grunt3

    grunt3 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
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    I agree with everything you say vmxa. It is an archi map and no AI has gotten more than 1 AI contact before 1000 BC -- I've blocked the choke points with warriors. Philosophy first then Map Making is a goal of mine, but I've been unsucessful. I think my mistake may have been trading Alphabet to Persia for Iron Working -- then I use Iron Working to trade for more techs to the other blocked off AI. Persia easily becomes the tech leader then and proceeds to get Philosophy and Map Making. I've read that Moonsinger buys gold sums for gpt in return, but I haven't done that because I don't have the income for it, and nobody has built up much gold so nobody can pay me much gold for my techs. The AI doesn't like me enough to pay me gpt yet, even after I have gifted them 100 gold -- by the time I can establish an embassy to try again, I am too far behind. I think I will try to max out my research to Philosophy instead of doing the 10% 50 turn thing.
     
  4. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    13,684
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    First I would say that you can expect the AI to be cash poor for the early game. It is not till they get contacts that a few will have the money.

    Second, I would never make a cash gift, to anyone not weak and likely to stay that way as I do not want to fuel their empire. If you must give a cash gift, 10 is enough. You cannot buy friends here.

    Either you get strong and they do not like that or your die and you do not like that.

    Third forget Map, you cannot afford it. Yes I know this is an island map, now I do anyway. You need Lit and to clear the island.

    Fourth you now know you cannot trade Alpha, till you already have Writing at the earliest. Exceptions, is if you know someone else know Alpha. Check the F11.

    You got a hard roll of the dice to run into Xerxes so close. You can be sure he will demand Alpha or cash and you will have to fight. This will be harsh at first, you need to get a leader or at least some elites.

    You do not need Iron, you need Horses. One of the dangers is you must ignore the needed techs and race for Philo and hope nothing ugly happens (attacks), right away.

    The way I do it is min research on Writing as it will not matter how much I put into it for many turns and I want to hoard some gold. Now go all out on Writing and Philo and use the gold to pay the bills. You may be able increase research on Writing after you get some towns up.

    Now I hope to get a leader out of any fighting that takes place and fill it if I need to to kill off a neighbor. If alone them not fill it till I can invade.

    Note you will need to get some towns up in size and one problem is without Masonry, you have no real good prebuild. You will need to have worker on hand as you get close to learning Philo.

    You want to have them mine as many tiles as need and be added into the town to get max shields. You have the extra food to allow a specialist, if needed. Once you have Lit, put as many pop to work as you can, use lux slider to allow max shield.

    Research and techs you need to survive, but the goal is to get out and make contacts to get the use of the GLB. This lets you turn off research for a long time to build up cash and forces.
     
  5. grunt3

    grunt3 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I cash gift if I have a trade for a missing tech and the AI's total gold -- I only do this if I really need the tech or if the AI will get that tech soon anyway. I give them some cash then I take all the gold back again in the trade right after. I am trying to get Map before Literature in this map because, I want to get horses and iron, which are on another continent. I'm replaying the map so I know the layout already. Somehow Moonsinger was able to stay on par with techs without a GLib. I am trying to do the same, but I am unsuccessful after multiple replays, thus the title of the thread "I need help in Sid trading". Maya starts out with Masonry for a Palace prebuild. The starting terrain is excellent in that I can set up 2 four turners and 3 six turners. Even so, AI could still out expand me if they have open land. The AI is set to least aggressive and they haven't started a war, though I plan to entice them to declare on me when I'm ready.
     
  6. vmxa

    vmxa Chieftain

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    Location:
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    I feel it is an exploit to give gold prior to a trade for the purpose of getting a boost in relations. In any event it does not matter at Sid as you will soon fall out of favor anyway.

    They do not have to like you to trade, so no need. The only way to stay on par with research at Sid is to be bigger than they are. You pay full price for things, they pay 40%.

    So that tends to mean I need to be more than twice their size, that takes a long time. They start with 2 extra settlers.

    I thought you were Hiawatha? No masonry to start. I guess I will have to look at the thread again, just do not remember how it went. It was a long time ago and many games later.
     
  7. grunt3

    grunt3 Chieftain

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    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
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    Here's a link to Moonsinger's sav files, if you would be so kind as to look at them. :)
    She is on par techwise at 1000BC and 10AD. The trading at 10AD is impressive and confusing. It seems research is always at zero percent and everything is done through trading, though I could be wrong. I'd like to learn how to do this. :)
     
  8. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Ohio
    This is old, but in case in anyone reads it...

    The saves tell us that 3 turns before 1000 BC imply that she set research to 0 temporarily, bought something from Greece for 45 gpt, and then sold something back to them for 44 gpt. She *might* have set all of her citizens temporarily to tax collectors and then changed them back... but her economy seems strong enough that she might not have needed to do this. I've noticed that Korea likes to research Currency early on in my games well before anyone does. Not so much with Greece... maybe Greece's UU changes the AI's behavior somehow. Anyways, my guess goes something like this:

    1. She did a 50 turn run on Alphabet.

    2. She bought Writing from someone with a lump sum of cash.

    3. She bought Map Making from Greece. Maybe more than one tribe had it. Maybe she had waited until Germany had learned Map Making also.

    4. She used Map Making to obtain Currency from Korea. Maybe also throwing in a lump sum for Currency. Maybe she first got Mathematics from someone else who didn't have Map Making... or maybe a lump sum... or maybe a combination of the two.

    5. She then sells Currency back to Greece for almost all of the gpt she supplied.

    6. She picks up the rest of the techs via Currency and Map Making.

    She has no other active 20 turn deals in that save.

    The 10 AD save has a lot more going on, with several gpt going to Korea and other deals. I don't have all that good of an idea of what she got for her gpt. But, I do notice that she isn't using gpt to obtain resources or luxuries.
     

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