Help!

[Chinky24]

Okay so I stopped playing Civ 3 a few years ago and picked it back up this last month.

And I tried a game on Monarch, thinking I still had it. I don't.

I attached some screenshots. I am the Chinese, I am the only one left in a game with the Americans for Domination only victory requirement, and the land/pop is about even. Turn is around 440 or 540 total on huge 2 continent game.

I am very very behind on score should it go to a tiebreaker (my 4000 vs Abe's 10k).

Militarily, I am behind as well, because they had time to conquer like ten of the civilizations on that continent.

I'm not a noob, but I would like some advice. I admit the tech-trading thing pisses me off, because I had forgotten about it all those years, and I had to conquer 3-4 civilizations myself just to get parity. I have a lot of money, while the Americans have 0 gold (not that it is important). I don't know how I'm going to really hurt them with those thousands of units in 100 turns. I don't know if it's a war I can win. Even if I used nukes, their SDI would make it a very investment, and I doubt they're going to stack all of them right there for me to just blow up. My advantage (that is not on screen) is that I have 160 stealth bombers and 36 armies (4 modern armors in each).

 

[MysteryX]

Post a saved game.

Don't research Future Tech, it's worthless. Though it supposedly helps with the score, it only helps by a few points (that's right, just a few points).

Way too many mech infantry sitting around doing nothing. America can't do any sort of land invasion against you, you don't need mech infantry guarding the cities on your main continent.

You need to set up a trap to eat up some of that American military when you engage them. Airlift all those mech infantry to America's continent. When you attack America next, move a stack on a mountain just inside their border (hopefully you have that kind of terrain advantage), and let America crash its units into yours. Fortified on a mountain, a stack of 100+ mech infantry could very well chew down 1000+ American attack units.

Though strategically it is possible to even up the military strength with traps, you have a huge problem if you are going to fight wars with massive numbers of units and you are in a Republic. With that many units involved in combat, war weariness is going to pile up fast.

If you chew down their attack units, you can capture their cities fast with 36 armies.

Also, you can identify any key resources the Americans need to make their best units, put some stealth bombers out on a few carriers, and bomb away the rails connecting to their key strategic resources. With 160 stealth bombers- wow, that is overkill- but with 160 you ought to be able to screw all of America's resources on your first turn.

 

[Cyc]

Have you stolen their military plans yet?

 

[Chinky24]

Attachment included. Hope whoever downloads it has more fun than I am!

My question is, if I ran the odds of hoping to outnuke them (first by nuking Detroit, where the SDI is), is it possible to destroy the city and the SDI, and then go all out on their conventional units?

I don't have military plans, I'll try to get some when I get more feedback here on what to do. Another problem is that America has hundreds (and I mean hundreds) of AEGIS cruisers and F-15s. That poses an operational hazard for any sealane or aerial domination.

Does anyone know at what level of military strength comparison does an aggressive AI DoW you at earliest opportunity? And say, I nuke enough of them and take out enough to meet the 66/66 criteria in 1 turn, is it an auto-win?

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I liked playing these late game huge landings. Lots of strategies for surviving a landing, from drawing their numbers off with that stack of mechs or a single settler out of reach. You can nuke or bomb a buffer zone so they can't get to your landing. I did these a number of times and can't say I liked any of them. I came down to declaring war, waiting till I new I could get peace then capture a coastal city and get the peace deal, then you can move in at your leasure, gets a bit crowded, then declare war again when you are ready.

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

Oh ya, my experience with the SDI city was nuking it just wasted your nukes, they won't destroy the SDI anyway. If you know where it is, I've spent a lot money investigating cities to find it, the only way to stop their SDI is to take the city and disband it, great suicide mission if it is accessible.

 

[MysteryX]

You have Right of Passage with America. You can screw them.

Forget about using your Stealth Bombers to take out resources (America has all kinds of ways to shoot them down anyway). On the turn you to go war, before attacking, have two cheap units sitting on top of every single resource in America's empire. First turn, each of those units pillages the rails over the resource. America now has no resources, nothing to make advanced units, no luxuries for happiness.

For your trap, abandon Laioyang. Build a new settlement on the hill north of where Laioyang used to be. Spend your money to rush an airport, barracks, civil defense, aqueduct, and hospital. Join workers to the city to give it maximum population (for the defensive bonus of large cities, plus padding to withstand bombing). Build a radar tower on the mountain beside your new city. Aside from a very small reserve of modern armor to defend your mainland from sea attack (and the cheap units sitting on American resources), amass all your ground troops to this new city. Sit maybe 3/4 in the city itself, 1/4 in the mountain with the radar. This is the only city to try to defend when you start your war. You will lose the other settlements in the short term, but America will have no choice but to grind its land forces on a highly defended target.

I'm concerned that you will lose your Stealth Bombers to America's jet fighters and SAM Missile Batteries and mobile SAMs. You may want to start by positioning your Stealth Bombers on your mainland to defend against sea bombardment or invasion from America.

After America smashes its forces on your well-defended city, counter-attack with what you have left. Without resources, America will not be able to replace its losses with its best possible units.

You are running out of time, so you need to think about positioning your forces ASAP.

 

[Chinky24]

I just got home. I'll go do that right now. In the meantime, someone want to try a couple of turns on my save and see if they have better results?

I appreciate all the help and insight by the way, it's nice being on a civil forum for a change.

 

[MysteryX]

I did take a look at the save game and fiddled with it. The problem is that the map is huge and there are so many units, there are going to be hours of game time just moving your units from one continent to the other.

I forgot to mention it before, but a SAM Missile Battery could be a good addition to your new city beside the abandoned Laioyang. America will certainly send a swarm of bombers over it on their first counter-attack.

Also, when you are looking for America's resources to cut out, keep in mind that they have cities sitting on top of some resources. The cities are pretty well-defended too. On your first turn of knocking out resources, you may be better off just completely cutting out the rail surrounding the city than trying to guess how many units you need to knock out the city. Remember you need two attacks per square to pull it off (one modern armor or two of most other units).

 

[Cyc]

I don't think I've ever seen New York aproximately 14 tiles away from Washington. They popped a lucky hut I guess.

Try what MysteryX has suggested. All your units are in locations where they won't do you optimum good. Nice try taking that southern belt, but you'll lose that the first turn of war.

Looks like stealing the plans will cost you 90 grand.

This would be a little too boring for me to attempt playing. Too many units. Too little chance of success. I never let the leading AI take half the world before I start a war. I think I would have supplied one (or more) of Abe's enemies with the resources to stand up to him. Or taken him on myself.

But I like the size of the map. I prefer Pangaea over Continents for the reasons your looking at now. Too bad it didn't work out.

 

[Chinky24]

Yeah the one thing I noticed is that every single turn takes longer and longer, and even moving like 1 division of armor to airlift or sealift is a pain in the ass. I have so many workers on auto it lags up the game for me (on this Lenovo laptop, which plays Ghost Recon Future Soldier and other games fine).

I found out Detroit was where their SDI was, but even then I don't want to bother: even if I nuke the city and take the SDI and raze it to the ground, that's still like 50 turns of combat (with nuclear weapons) I have to grind.

I made several mistakes early on (including letting the tech slide and not waging war in turn 100 or so when I was at parity and no one was too strong). I am paying for it now with that 100 city monster who steamrolled France and the Mayans (who I supplied with technology and gold and resources) in 2 turns. Literally, an AI stamped 2 civilizations in 2 turns. Boom boom boom. I was surprised because usually America sucks in these big 16 player games.

I took a break these last few hours and reevaluated and read up on some other game saves and advice you vets have given: and it seems like I'm dealing with a pretty unique situation where the numbers, scale, and factors involved are huge compared to most problems people have. To go to war without the cheap RoP trick is risking a lot. I ran a test in which I didn't accede to Abe's threats and let him DoW me - my little foothold on that continent, all those armies, everything, got wiped out in that same turn, saying something about American military capabilities.

I have reached the following conclusions:
1. Any war will have to be initiated by me so I can have that first strike advantage that turn.
2. The war must be nuclear so I can torch their main armies using ICBMs and bombers.
3. The main objective will be to annihilate or at least debilitate most of his field units.
4. I must, in order to remain positive in the military exchange, continue sealifting and airlifting almost all of my available heavy military assets.
5. My advantage as a human being is my most important strength (followed by the number of armies and air support units I have on call).
6. I must find a way to use my heavy military assets in favorable terrain to bleed them down to manageable size.

Otherwise this game is a bust and everyone here would have wasted hours of time (and many many hours of time in my case).

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

So there has been talk of traps, but no specifics. I've used armies in the past as blockers, give the AI attacking stacks a path to your city but keep it always out of range, it sounds like you have enough armies to accomplish this. The question is do you have the tile space? You open a single path to your city, close it down and open another after the AI moves in. You can keep the AI seesawing between the two paths if done carefully. With each turn there should be some fracturing of the stacks, you pick off the units in the smaller stacks. With the numbers your talking about it will be awfully grueling.

 

[MysteryX]

The reason I don't play on maps bigger than standard is because late in the game, there get to be so many cities to manage and units to move that it becomes more of a chore than a game.

Despite the heavy numerical advantage America has in units, your armies and your ability to abuse the Right of Passage make it a very winnable game for you. It just depends on how many hours you want to spend winning.

I had recommended just leaving two stacks of units- one in a defended city built on a hill (the one next to Liaoyang) and then the other stack in the mountain beside it (with a radar), because if those are the only two targets, those are the only two places for America to grind up its forces. I had forgotten though that the AI avoids attacking armies. So maybe under my plan, put the armies in the mountain guarding the radar tower, and everything else in the well-defended hill city (with civil defense and 13+ population). Using the armies to create a gauntlet as Nero suggested would also be viable (especially if you also place your radar artillery along that gauntlet with the armies to redline America's units before they even make it to your trap). And using the armies as blockers the AI will avoid, you don't necessarily have to sacrifice your other cities on America's continent as I had initially suggested.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I thought that the AI would avoid direct attacks on full-strength armies with land forces, but would be willing to thrash them with bombers? That has been my (limited) experience.

 

[Chinky24]

In other games I've played a few years ago I've had them make desperate attacks on armies, especially when it's their capital they just lost, or it's a chokepoint.

I am playing now, I'm following some of the advice here on force collection and mass and we'll see where it goes - I'll post a save.

 

[Chinky24]

Okay so I took my first war turn, after I amassed about a few hundred units on that southern part of the continent, I took out Detroit and captured it with the SDI stuff, it's okay if they take it back I just needed that opening. With nukes and bombings I killed about 1000 of their units. Last count before war was about 2k Mechs and 1.4k Modern Armor, so this is good progress towards evening the situation up.

I'm in for a long war regardless - note that I took out the railroads and nuked the chokepoint cities so that I have some breathing room before they strike back. If they happen to nuke me, well I would be fully capable of winning the nuclear exchange. I uploaded 3 images and a saved game for those of you interested.

I'd like to know everyone's thoughts and criticism is welcome. I thought I did decent in terms of force trade off, and I will nuke the rest of Abe's cities if I really have to.

 

[Chinky24]

The Murrikans managed to get some of their nukes through, but only hit like a few of my cities, most of them unimportant corruption centers anyway where India used to be. The next turn, I used my ICBMs against military targets, and I am getting ever closer to parity, without committing my own large-scale ground forces in what may be an ugly encounter. I know SDI cannot be rushed without a leader (which they don't have) so I have a few turns of nuclear supremacy. If you notice the substantial differences in their military numbers now that I am servicing the targets with nukes and stealth bombers.

 

[MysteryX]

Okay so I took my first war turn, after I amassed about a few hundred units on that southern part of the continent, I took out Detroit and captured it with the SDI stuff, it's okay if they take it back I just needed that opening. With nukes and bombings I killed about 1000 of their units. Last count before war was about 2k Mechs and 1.4k Modern Armor, so this is good progress towards evening the situation up.

If you capture another civilization's small wonder, does it remain or is it automatically destroyed? If not, can you just sell it like any other building, or raze the city, so America has no chance of recapturing SDI?

 

[Chinky24]

If you capture another civilization's small wonder, does it remain or is it automatically destroyed? If not, can you just sell it like any other building, or raze the city, so America has no chance of recapturing SDI?

So when I captured it, it disappeared (since I have one already and you can't have two of those).
America upon recapturing Detroit did not have SDI (or I just got insanely lucky on like all 20 ICBMs in a row). So the capture of a small wonder when the civilization already has it = it's gone. At least that's how I understand this experience.

Have you tried loading my save?

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I've had some luck drawing nukes repeatedly to a town sitting directly on an aluminum resource tile. Did you notice any resources around those cities that did get nuked?